General Eurovision 2024 - should Israel be barred?

[Sarge]

Given that Russia ( & probably Belarus?) were barred/ banned from taking part in Eurovision after Invading Ukraine, should Israel - who have changed some of the lyrics and the original title of this years entry ( too provocative and political was the original title and lyrics , apparently) after their invasion of Gaza and potential war crimes carried out on aid workers?

Personally Ive never been too taken by the eurovison song contest, however, if Russia warranted a ban for their warmongering, shouldn't the same standards apply to Israel for their warmongering actions too

Note . Russia are European, Isreal aren't, ( which raises the question why have Israel been invited to take part in Eurovision- though maybe a question for another day that is?)

Poll above

 

[Malc]

Should never have been let in.

 

[Marked Ox]

As said elsewhere, cancel the event but just don't tell the Israeli delegation or performer.

 

[Stranger]

Don't bar them - make it compulsory for every Israeli citizen to watch it. That'll show 'em

 

[Wandering Yellow]

This should be a non-issue because non-European nations shouldn't be in Eurovision in the first place. Why the hell are Australia in it?

I wouldn't say Russia 'are' European, lots of Russians aren't European or from Europe, but I take the point enough of it is to make them a fair entry in normal times.

If Israel has been deemed to go have gone beyond self-defence and into the territory of all-out-war, then you would imagine they would have to be banned like Russia. Who decides what Israel are doing is against international laws? (Genuine question, I don't know)

Eurovision is a bit nothingy, a football tournament ban would be major news.

 

[Marked Ox]

This should be a non-issue because non-European nations shouldn't be in Eurovision in the first place. Why the hell are Australia in it?

£££££££

 

[mooro]

My son is very into Eurovision and he informs me that Russia and Belarus have not been banned. They withdrew while a ban was being discussed.

He also informs me that entry is open to any country in the European broadcasting union, which includes a number of countries from outside of Europe, some of which, such as Morocco, have competed in the past. There apparently remains interest regarding future participation from others in north Africa and the middle east.

Personally, I think they should be allowed to compete, as the whole thing is meant to be apolitical and about unity despite differences, etc,
etc, but I can see why many want a ban and many are excluding the song from reviews and playlists.

 

[Mojofilter]

Yes, if Russia weren't involved for an invasion then Israel should get at least the same punishment for an invasion + genocide

 

[holdsteady]

Make them enter then force them to watch as punishment.

 

[Wandering Yellow]

Yes, if Russia weren't involved for an invasion then Israel should get at least the same punishment for an invasion + genocide

Are Israel commiting genocide? Genuine question.

 

[Mojofilter]

Are Israel commiting genocide? Genuine question.

Yes, I'd say pretty unequivocally yes they are.

 

[Wandering Yellow]

Yes, I'd say pretty unequivocally yes they are.

Fair enough, when I think of genocide I think of the ones in Sierre Leone, holocaust and Armenia.

How much of the Palestinian population has been killed?

Whats the definition of a genocide?

Im not saying you arent right. Its just a very severe word.

 

[Marked Ox]

Fair enough, when I think of genocide I think of the ones in Sierre Leone, holocaust and Armenia.

How much of the Palestinian population has been killed?

Whats the definition of a genocide?

Im not saying you arent right. Its just a very severe word.

Engineering a famine can also come under genocide, see Ukraine in the early 30s*:

Holodomor - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

"The definition for genocide under international law:

The convention, which has been ratified by 153 countries including the UK (in 1970) and Israel, defines genocide as “any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group”.

The acts include killing members of the group, causing them serious bodily or mental harm, destroying their living conditions so as to bring about their destruction, preventing them from giving birth and forcibly transferring their children to other groups.

It is considered to be the most serious war crime."

(From: https://www.theguardian.com/law/202...n-and-how-might-it-apply-to-the-uk-and-israel)

Israel's actions of causing famine by preventing aid/using starvation as a weapon of war, destroying civilian buildings/infrastructure and the levels of civilian death in theory could all qualify under the Genocide Convention.

As detailed in the above Guardian article, South Africa have already brought a case against Israel for genocide and the International Court of Justice haven't found Israel guilty (that could still happen but will likely take years), they have issued an interim judgement "the ICJ issued an interim judgment in which it said it was “plausible” that Israel was committing breaches of the genocide convention against Palestinians in Gaza."

It is also suggested in the Guardian article that South Africa are preparing cases against the US and UK as we supply Israel with weapons.


*As you'd expect there is disagreement between various historians

 

[Paul Cannell]

How much of the Palestinian population has been killed?

Whats the definition of a genocide?

On the first, the BBC sniffily reports something like "the Hamas controlled Gaza government reports over 30,000 people dead". These are corpses that have been identified formally by a a government authority operating under siege conditions whose hospitals, offices, systems and personnel have been destroyed. It doesn't count the unidentified dead or those buried or made unrecognisable by bombs, rockets and other weapons or those buried by bulldozers in mass graves.



This the UN definition:

Definition
Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide
Article II

In the present Convention, genocide means any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such:

Killing members of the group;
Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group;
Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part;
Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group;
Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group.
Elements of the crime
The Genocide Convention establishes in Article I that the crime of genocide may take place in the context of an armed conflict, international or non-international, but also in the context of a peaceful situation. The latter is less common but still possible. The same article establishes the obligation of the contracting parties to prevent and to punish the crime of genocide.

The popular understanding of what constitutes genocide tends to be broader than the content of the norm under international law. Article II of the Genocide Convention contains a narrow definition of the crime of genocide, which includes two main elements:

A mental element: the "intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such"; and
A physical element, which includes the following five acts, enumerated exhaustively:
Killing members of the group
Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group
Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part
Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group
Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group

This is a link to the

This is a link to the UN document.