National News The Brexit Thread 🇬🇧🇪🇺

[Wandering Yellow]

There’s at least three posts above referring to slaves and European nationals being exploited on “pitiful wages and awful living conditions”.

It is correct that there are workers from countries like Albania, Bulgaria and Romania who have and are exploited by criminal gangs involved in modern day slavery in the U.K. it is also correct that there are economic migrant workers in the U.K. who have worked on minimum or just above minimum wage because it is better than what they can earn at home. If you think that working on minimum wage is exploitative then that’s another matter. Obviously some construction companies and their clients do because they enforce things like the National Living or London Living Wage. Companies paying minimum wage though are legally entitled to as it’s the government who set it.

Those being exploited in fashion houses in Leicester or take aways in Birmingham, nail bars in London and so on are often from countries farther afield than our neighbours in the EU.

I never said that?

 

[Oslernorth]

Not at all from you Osler, I know you're a rational guy, but I do find those EU lovers like Steve Bray really hard to comprehend.

Also, why do you need to be in a political union to have sensible trading arangements? I've really never understood that.

Personally I couldn’t see a full political union happening. You just wouldn’t get the agreement needed in the EU Council. It would effectively be a case of the EU Council voting to abolish itself. (Certainly not in peacetime anyway)
But you do need some political alignment for a trading bloc. Trading rules and regulations need to be standardised across the EU for internal trade, and to act as one when doing trade deals externally.
To get the best of the trading arrangements with another country, you have to have the strongest economy.
Essentially the aim of a trade agreement is to gain as much access to another country’s markets whist keeping the access to you own as limited as possible, particularly in areas where your own manufacturers would be undercut. This is an area where the EU has been very successful.

Going forwards, I’m not sure what a positive answer’s going to be for UK regarding trade and influence. Fingers crossed someone will come along with one.

 

[Sheik djibouti]

Personally I couldn’t see a full political union happening. You just wouldn’t get the agreement needed in the EU Council. It would effectively be a case of the EU Council voting to abolish itself. (Certainly not in peacetime anyway)
But you do need some political alignment for a trading bloc. Trading rules and regulations need to be standardised across the EU for internal trade, and to act as one when doing trade deals externally.
To get the best of the trading arrangements with another country, you have to have the strongest economy.
Essentially the aim of a trade agreement is to gain as much access to another country’s markets whist keeping the access to you own as limited as possible, particularly in areas where your own manufacturers would be undercut. This is an area where the EU has been very successful.

Going forwards, I’m not sure what a positive answer’s going to be for UK regarding trade and influence. Fingers crossed someone will come along with one.

Precisely - Project Fear from the leavers. Absolute pie in the sky (along with the EU army ).

And I have the same concerns over our ability to strike deals that benefit the UK more than they would've done had we been at the table as part of the EU (anything less advantageous is a failure to deliver on the promise that Brexit was sold on). We've certainly done plenty to damage our reputation and trustworthiness in the last few years because of this shitshow. And whist you may not like what Leo Varadkar had to say about our governments trustworthiness last week, there is more than a grain of truth in what he said. I bet it is there at the back of most prospective trading partners minds.

Establishing trust in any agreement is essential and we're currently hopping around on the world stage desperately trying to pretend we haven't just shot ourselves in the foot. Boris has been caught with his pants down (again) as confirmed by Ian Paisley Jr this week - he signed an agreement for political expediency that he had absolutely no intention of sticking to. Not a great look on the world stage that.

You might think I am enjoying the Brexit horror show that is unfolding, but I guarantee I absolutely am not! It utterly pains me to see the utter mess they have made of a potential opportunity (yes, I said it, Brexit presents alternative, if not equal imho, opportunities!!), but whilst we continue to suffer from our current addiction to Nationalism and tribalism, we will continue to not think straight about how we interact sensibly with each other and with the rest of the planet.

 

[Wandering Yellow]

Precisely - Project Fear from the leavers. Absolute pie in the sky (along with the EU army ).

And I have the same concerns over our ability to strike deals that benefit the UK more than they would've done had we been at the table as part of the EU (anything less advantageous is a failure to deliver on the promise that Brexit was sold on). We've certainly done plenty to damage our reputation and trustworthiness in the last few years because of this shitshow. And whist you may not like what Leo Varadkar had to say about our governments trustworthiness last week, there is more than a grain of truth in what he said. I bet it is there at the back of most prospective trading partners minds.

Establishing trust in ay agreement is essential and we're currently hopping around on the world stage desperately trying to pretend we haven't just shot ourselves in the foot. Boris has been caught with his pants down (again) as confirmed by Ian Paisley Jr this week - he signed an agreement for political expediency that he had absolutely no intention of sticking to. Not a great look on the world stage that.

You might think I am enjoying the Brexit horror show that is unfolding, but I guarantee I absolutely am not! It utterly pains me to see the utter mess they have made of a potential opportunity (yes, I said it, Brexit presents alternative, if not equal imho, opportunities!!), but whilst we continue to suffer from our current addiction to Nationalism and tribalism, we will continue to not think straight about how we interact sensibly with each other and with the rest of the planet.

Proposals for an EU army re-emerge after Afghan pullout – but many remain ‘hard to convince’

European dismay over President Joe Biden’s precipitous withdrawal of US troops from Afghanistan has renewed calls for an EU military force. But while proponents of “strategic autonomy” say the fall of…

www.france24.com

I will be amazed if an EU army doesn't happen at some point.

Also, what "Brexit horror show" are you seeing unfolding? Almost no Brexiteers see it as even having gone slightly negatively let alone a "horror show". Remainers are so weird.

 

[SteMerritt]

Almost no Brexiteers see it as even having gone slightly negatively

#sits back with popcorn waiting to see who bites first...

 

[Wandering Yellow]

#sits back with popcorn waiting to see who bites first...

You've lived a pretty privileged life if you think you're currently living through some kind of "horror show"

An Uighur in China is living through a horror-show. Not Sheik because his tesco shop costs a couple more quid than it used to.

 

[Sheik djibouti]

Proposals for an EU army re-emerge after Afghan pullout – but many remain ‘hard to convince’

European dismay over President Joe Biden’s precipitous withdrawal of US troops from Afghanistan has renewed calls for an EU military force. But while proponents of “strategic autonomy” say the fall of…

www.france24.com

I will be amazed if an EU army doesn't happen at some point.

Also, what "Brexit horror show" are you seeing unfolding? Almost no Brexiteers see it as even having gone slightly negatively let alone a "horror show". Remainers are so weird.

EU military committee chairman says we need closer cooperation - no s**t sherlock Turkeys and xmas (well xmas past at least) spring to mind

There is virtually zero political will for it to happen. German defence minister said something might happen if everyone agreed to it - wow! Macron immediately and vehemently disagrees = dead in the water! It won't happen without consensus of member states (despite some wishing to portray the EU as a democratic bulldozer). One article quoting the bloke in charge of...EU military affairs and someone else in Germany saying it might happen if we all agree to it, does not change that - don't fall for it!

So you think we've negotiated significant beneficial trade deals? (and no, you can't count the EU roll overs, which the majority were - we got that anyway...but with more trust from our partners)- - evidence is a bit thin!

So you don't think the impacts of Covid have been exacerbated by Brexit (and vice versa) across several sectors in terms of workforce shortages and supply difficulties? That agriculture (https://www.edp24.co.uk/news/business/brexit-impact-on-norfolk-and-suffolk-farming-8095742), fishing (https://www.reuters.com/business/uk-fisheries-sold-out-brexit-deal-industry-body-says-2021-07-14/), haulage (https://apex-insight.com/haulage-exchange-shows-major-industry-post-brexit-problems/#:~:text=Between March and May 2021,in demand compared to 2019.&text=Close to 70% have lost,, this was at 21%.), hospitality (https://www.caterer.com/recruiter-a...xit-and-covid-on-the-uk-hospitality-workforce), manufacturing (https://investmentmonitor.ai/busine...xit-continues-its-assault-on-uk-manufacturing), food and drink production (https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-57518910) haven't been significantly impacted by the restrictions in free movement and other barriers it has created? Did we dream for example that the emergency temporary visa issue (aimed at EU nationals) to try and tackle just the tip of the iceberg then? Are industry wrong to point out that the extremely limited talent pool they were drawing from (hence some long term structural shortages), is now even smaller, BECAUSE of the end of free movement?

Whichever way you cut it, many in those sectors living and breathing it day to day are saying it has made their lives harder and their very livelihoods have been impacted. So yeah - I will listen to them, rather than say "well, I haven't been affected personally, so it must be OK", if that's OK?

Maybe you could also go and ask communities in Northern Ireland how they are feeling about the impacts and uncertainty that has been caused. Maybe talk to those close to the GFA and the peril it is now in because Lord Frost and Boris have played fast and loose for political expedience. I can see no upside to that, only significant downsides which could if handled with the current lack of sensitivity, end quite badly for all including us on the mainland if it falls apart. I lived in London through the last IRA mainland bombing campaign - I'd rather not risk it again, thanks, let alone put a future agreement with another huge Western market in the US at risk because of it!

You'd do well to broaden your world view by listening to real experiences of others and how they are impacted and try to take them on board, rather than always defaulting to how you think stuff impacts you directly.

And there is a certain irony to that narrow world view on the impact of Brexit, based as it seems to be on personal experience. Ironic when you are regularly turning cartwheels on here over non-existent made-up stuff like "woke capitalism" and the wider loony left takeover of every aspect of UK life/society, or the impact of some lefty bogeyman who seems to haunt your dreams each night.... Real McCarthiest "reds under the bed" nonsense in my opinion! You'd do well to be less paranoid about stuff!

 

[Essexyellows]

EU military committee chairman says we need closer cooperation - no s**t sherlock Turkeys and xmas (well xmas past at least) spring to mind

There is virtually zero political will for it to happen. German defence minister said something might happen if everyone agreed to it - wow! Macron immediately and vehemently disagrees = dead in the water! It won't happen without consensus of member states (despite some wishing to portray the EU as a democratic bulldozer). One article quoting the bloke in charge of...EU military affairs and someone else in Germany saying it might happen if we all agree to it, does not change that - don't fall for it!

So you think we've negotiated significant beneficial trade deals? (and no, you can't count the EU roll overs, which the majority were - we got that anyway...but with more trust from our partners)- - evidence is a bit thin!

So you don't think the impacts of Covid have been exacerbated by Brexit (and vice versa) across several sectors in terms of workforce shortages and supply difficulties? That agriculture (https://www.edp24.co.uk/news/business/brexit-impact-on-norfolk-and-suffolk-farming-8095742), fishing (https://www.reuters.com/business/uk-fisheries-sold-out-brexit-deal-industry-body-says-2021-07-14/), haulage (https://apex-insight.com/haulage-exchange-shows-major-industry-post-brexit-problems/#:~:text=Between March and May 2021,in demand compared to 2019.&text=Close to 70% have lost,, this was at 21%.), hospitality (https://www.caterer.com/recruiter-a...xit-and-covid-on-the-uk-hospitality-workforce), manufacturing (https://investmentmonitor.ai/busine...xit-continues-its-assault-on-uk-manufacturing), food and drink production (https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-57518910) haven't been significantly impacted by the restrictions in free movement and other barriers it has created? Did we dream for example that the emergency temporary visa issue (aimed at EU nationals) to try and tackle just the tip of the iceberg then? Are industry wrong to point out that the extremely limited talent pool they were drawing from (hence some long term structural shortages), is now even smaller, BECAUSE of the end of free movement?

Whichever way you cut it, many in those sectors living and breathing it day to day are saying it has made their lives harder and their very livelihoods have been impacted. So yeah - I will listen to them, rather than say "well, I haven't been affected personally, so it must be OK", if that's OK?

Maybe you could also go and ask communities in Northern Ireland how they are feeling about the impacts and uncertainty that has been caused. Maybe talk to those close to the GFA and the peril it is now in because Lord Frost and Boris have played fast and loose for political expedience. I can see no upside to that, only significant downsides which could if handled with the current lack of sensitivity, end quite badly for all including us on the mainland if it falls apart. I lived in London through the last IRA mainland bombing campaign - I'd rather not risk it again, thanks, let alone put a future agreement with another huge Western market in the US at risk because of it!

You'd do well to broaden your world view by listening to real experiences of others and how they are impacted and try to take them on board, rather than always defaulting to how you think stuff impacts you directly.

And there is a certain irony to that narrow world view on the impact of Brexit, based as it seems to be on personal experience. Ironic when you are regularly turning cartwheels on here over non-existent made-up stuff like "woke capitalism" and the wider loony left takeover of every aspect of UK life/society, or the impact of some lefty bogeyman who seems to haunt your dreams each night.... Real McCarthiest "reds under the bed" nonsense in my opinion! You'd do well to be less paranoid about stuff!

10 months after we "left" you expect everything to be sorted out?
If we hadn`t wasted 4 years fudging about we might be a lot further down the road.
And then chuck in a bit of a global problem that will have hit hospitality, haulage, agriculture, manufacturing etc.........

Come back when the ship is in smother water and the icebergs have passed.

 

[Sheik djibouti]

10 months after we "left" you expect everything to be sorted out?
If we hadn`t wasted 4 years fudging about we might be a lot further down the road.
And then chuck in a bit of a global problem that will have hit hospitality, haulage, agriculture, manufacturing etc.........

Come back when the ship is in smother water and the icebergs have passed.

Oh...the old "bumps in the road" chestnut. How long is that joker valid for[emoji848]

Didn't say anything to suggest it is all Brexit....o ly that Brexit has made it worse (not better) than it might've been. We are less resilient, less able to cope with the global curveball as a result.

And the EU army. Do you still think that's a bona fide reason to leave the "axis of evil"?

 

[Oslernorth]

Oh...the old "bumps in the road" chestnut. How long is that joker valid for[emoji848]

Didn't say anything to suggest it is all Brexit....o ly that Brexit has made it worse (not better) than it might've been. We are less resilient, less able to cope with the global curveball as a result.

And the EU army. Do you still think that's a bona fide reason to leave the "axis of evil"?

If an Army was created 22 miles from our shores, I’d rather Britain had a say in it. Armies are much better when they’re on your side!

 

[Essexyellows]

Oh...the old "bumps in the road" chestnut. How long is that joker valid for[emoji848]

Didn't say anything to suggest it is all Brexit....o ly that Brexit has made it worse (not better) than it might've been. We are less resilient, less able to cope with the global curveball as a result.

And the EU army. Do you still think that's a bona fide reason to leave the "axis of evil"?

Nobody ever said there would not be difficulties. They said everything would go on the statute and then be looked at, 40 years of it will take time.

Resilience is not a short-term thing - we are going to have to be resilient for a long time yet.

EU Army? Will never happen as NATO already fills that sort of role when needed and many states won`t give up the ability to defend themselves.

Steady hand on the rudder.........

 

[QR]

Nobody ever said there would not be difficulties.

Can you please stop saving things that are completely untrue. David Davies's pronouncements on this were broadcast to a wide audience and will have influenced people.

'There will be no downsides to Brexit only considerable upsides'.

 

[Oxymoron]

Enterprising British industry has acted quickly to bring an alternative product to the market to alleviate the Xmas food shortage.....

 

[Essexyellows]

Can you please stop saving things that are completely untrue. David Davies's pronouncements on this were broadcast to a wide audience and will have influenced people.

'There will be no downsides to Brexit only considerable upsides'.

OK........... "nobody with any common sense"............... that should firmly exclude DD, and if anyone voted based on the opinion of 1 person out of 67 million then there is a rational case for an IQ test before voting.

 

[QR]

OK........... "nobody with any common sense"............... that should firmly exclude DD, and if anyone voted based on the opinion of 1 person out of 67 million then there is a rational case for an IQ test before voting.

You appear to be saying some Brexit voters are stupid.

 

[Sheik djibouti]

Nobody ever said there would not be difficulties. They said everything would go on the statute and then be looked at, 40 years of it will take time.

Resilience is not a short-term thing - we are going to have to be resilient for a long time yet.

EU Army? Will never happen as NATO already fills that sort of role when needed and many states won`t give up the ability to defend themselves.

Steady hand on the rudder.........

I am loving your continuing use of nautical terms.

You have seen whose hand is on the tiller, right?

I am more inclined to think that Boris is of the steady hand type that took the Titanic to the bottom of the Atlantic on it's first solo venture into stormy waters. Carry on the same course, do not adjust, we will be fine, we are unsinkable!!

Either that or he and/or Lord (Admiral) Frost are in command of the Carrier/Battleship in this urban legend https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lighthouse_and_naval_vessel_urban_legend

I would have more confidence if Uncle Albert had control of the rudder!

 

[Sheik djibouti]

You appear to be saying some Brexit voters are stupid.

Yes....shame on you @Essexyellows

See - easy isn't it?

 

[Essexyellows]

You appear to be saying some Brexit voters are stupid.

Well based on the UK population and the proportionality of "stupid" voters on both sides Remain or Leave will be so. Same with forums.......

 

[Essexyellows]

Yes....shame on you @Essexyellows

See - easy isn't it?

Well based on the UK population and the proportionality of "stupid" voters on both sides Remain or Leave will be so. Same with forums.......

Yep - got that.

 

[Sheik djibouti]

Yep - got that.

So it's OK to call people stupid now is it?

Gotcha.

When did the rules change #askingforafriend

Is there still a period (in the lead up to a referendum, for example) when it's not OK?