International News Immigration

MustardYellow said:
Even targeting the big boys in drug gangs doesn't stop drugs gangs. That isn't how they work. When I worked with ex prisoners one described this exact scenario to me in these terms during a discussion about preventing gang crime. He said if a manager at a 'normal' workplace was to die, be arrested etc what would happen? You'd usually have numerous people vying for the job, one would eventually get it, and before you knew it normal service is resumed. This is exactly the same in gangs, except the 'vying' is usually intimidation and/or violence. Essentially, there is *always* a replacement.

Why do people want to come here? Because of the benefits & perks being here brings. Continue those benefits & perks for those who come here legally, stop them for those who don't.
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So you think people are coming here for the benefits?

Last time I looked, legal migrants to this country were net contributors to our tax income, so what makes you think the ones desperate enough to try illegal routes are any different?

I'm sorry Mustard, you keep on banging on about your time working with prisoners, yet you also tell us you are barely 20 years old. I am sorry to have to tell you that this does not qualify you to tell us all "how it is" and your extremely limited life experience is really showing through in this deabte.
 
Boldest claim yet but I reckon all of us can agree on the following points:

  1. There has to be a limit on immigration into the UK (and any country) due to a finite level resources
  2. Legal immigration is hugely desirable as we get economic benefits (taxes and skills), healthcare benefits (NHS staff) and cultural benefits (music, food, new ideas).
  3. At the same time culture is a two way street and the fundamentals of British culture has to be adhered to - individual freedom, secular society (but free to practice your own religion), law and order, equality on gender and sexuality and necking lots of tea.
  4. We need to do our bit to take in refugees from crisis areas. This should be agreed at a supranational level - Europe.
  5. For the whole system to work we need a properly resourced (cash and people) border control. Applicants for asylum should take place in a third country (France) which we did have when we were in the EU but which were under resourced as were border checks. Relations with France aren't great and both countries (UK and France) bear responsibility. It's a failure of leadership.
  6. If the above could work then there is no need for the bat sh*t crazy Rwanda plan which is performative politics at its worse. We all deserve better than a government that engages in this level of sh*thousery.
  7. The country is ground down, tired and in a mess. Nothing works. Whilst Brexit and Covid have a big role here the biggest factor to blame is austerity which gutted public services for years and through quantitive easing which created billions of pounds which were hovered up by Private Equity which then (amongst other things) bought up public services and sold them back to local authorities at extortionate rates. (This also inflated assets which is why houses are so expensive, young people can't buy them and then causes anger when they see "illegals" being put up in hotels). These are same private equity firms that could fall over in 12 moths time unless interest rates come down causing another liquidity problem for banks.
  8. The Tories are screwed this country since 2010. No matter where you political inclination is they need to be kicked out.

I'm confident that all of you (even@Essexyellows) will agree with me. Vote Eric Blair.
 
Sheik djibouti said:
So you think people are coming here for the benefits?

Last time I looked, legal migrants to this country were net contributors to our tax income, so what makes you think the ones desperate enough to try illegal routes are any different?

I'm sorry Mustard, you keep on banging on about your time working with prisoners, yet you also tell us you are barely 20 years old. I am sorry to have to tell you that this does not qualify you to tell us all "how it is" and your extremely limited life experience is really showing through in this deabte.
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Facts: 'People who have been granted asylum in the UK have a disproportionately low employment rate of 51 per cent, compared with economic migrants who have an employment rate of 88 per cent....' '...a gap remains present even after more than 25 years of residence in the country.'

I started working with ex-prisoners when I turned 18 through my uncle's friend who was also an ex-prisoner. I did it for around 3 years. Hearing their stories was harrowing at times (some of them hadn't done the nicest things!) but taught me a lot and gave me perspective, whilst also experiencing the realities and cruelties of the world through them.

Minimising someone's opinion due to their age is poor, and frankly a bit silly.
 
MustardYellow said:
And how much of that can be proven on an individual basis? And how do you determine what 'oppression' is serious enough to warrant a claim of asylum?

Is the expectation that when someone says they've been 'oppressed' we just believe them?
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Everyone that claims asylum goes through a process with the home office, to establish what is true and what isn’t. That process should be robust and quick. I think the issue that we have at the moment is that it’s not either and it’s a big bone of contention on here.

Oppression is always a difficult thing to establish either way, and you have to establish the truth.

For example if someone from a country that doesn’t recognise homosexuality, and says they are gay and have HIV and claim asylum because they are being persecuted for both being gay and having HIV.

Should we turn them away……. And if not how can we tell that they’r e gay and have HIV

It’s a minefield but blankly saying one thing or the other is unethical.

Main point is we need to manage this process properly and treat these people with respect and dignity.
 
MustardYellow said:
Facts: 'People who have been granted asylum in the UK have a disproportionately low employment rate of 51 per cent, compared with economic migrants who have an employment rate of 88 per cent....' '...a gap remains present even after more than 25 years of residence in the country.'

I started working with ex-prisoners when I turned 18 through my uncle's friend who was also an ex-prisoner. I did it for around 3 years. Hearing their stories was harrowing at times (some of them hadn't done the nicest things!) but taught me a lot and gave me perspective, whilst also experiencing the realities and cruelties of the world through them.

Minimising someone's opinion due to their age is poor, and frankly a bit silly.
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So, which ones are coming illegally? That was the point I was making. Do you now think economic migrants are a good thing or bad thing - you seem unsure.

Trying to pontificate from a position taken from your favourite search engine/online publications, but of very limited real life experience is equally silly, but it hasn't really stopped you going for it. We all look back at things we said and did when we were young and cringe...and I expect you will be no different.
 
Eric Blair said:
Boldest claim yet but I reckon all of us can agree on the following points:

  1. There has to be a limit on immigration into the UK (and any country) due to a finite level resources
  2. Legal immigration is hugely desirable as we get economic benefits (taxes and skills), healthcare benefits (NHS staff) and cultural benefits (music, food, new ideas).
  3. At the same time culture is a two way street and the fundamentals of British culture has to be adhered to - individual freedom, secular society (but free to practice your own religion), law and order, equality on gender and sexuality and necking lots of tea.
  4. We need to do our bit to take in refugees from crisis areas. This should be agreed at a supranational level - Europe.
  5. For the whole system to work we need a properly resourced (cash and people) border control. Applicants for asylum should take place in a third country (France) which we did have when we were in the EU but which were under resourced as were border checks. Relations with France aren't great and both countries (UK and France) bear responsibility. It's a failure of leadership.
  6. If the above could work then there is no need for the bat sh*t crazy Rwanda plan which is performative politics at its worse. We all deserve better than a government that engages in this level of sh*thousery.
  7. The country is ground down, tired and in a mess. Nothing works. Whilst Brexit and Covid have a big role here the biggest factor to blame is austerity which gutted public services for years and through quantitive easing which created billions of pounds which were hovered up by Private Equity which then (amongst other things) bought up public services and sold them back to local authorities at extortionate rates. (This also inflated assets which is why houses are so expensive, young people can't buy them and then causes anger when they see "illegals" being put up in hotels). These are same private equity firms that could fall over in 12 moths time unless interest rates come down causing another liquidity problem for banks.
  8. The Tories are screwed this country since 2010. No matter where you political inclination is they need to be kicked out.

I'm confident that all of you (even@Essexyellows) will agree with me. Vote Eric Blair.
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Eric this is no time to try to foster agreement. We're nearly at page 100 and nobody has even come close to changing their opinion yet.

Just pick a random poster from the opposing side and blindly throw arguments at them. Don't read their responses goddamnit just argue at someone! Anyone!
 
bashamwonderland said:
Eric this is no time to try to foster agreement. We're nearly at page 100 and nobody has even come close to changing their opinion yet.

Just pick a random poster from the opposing side and blindly throw arguments at them. Don't read their responses goddamnit just argue at someone! Anyone!
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It's just like PMQs in here!
 
SteMerritt said:
I suppose when Labour get in and scrap the scheme it will give the Tories something to shout about from the other side of the house in an attempt to play up to their core.
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You say this, but there is also a really quite significant portion of the Labour party 'core' who also share the anti-immigration view, without it the so-called red wall would not have been toppled by Boris.
 
The Labour government can just show people this chart and tell them to stop being so stupid if they do moan and whinge about the wildly expensive, waste of time scheme being scrapped.1000011403.png
 
Eric Blair said:
This would go a long way to finding a solution. But it takes money and resources - something that this Ayn Rand government dont see to want to spend.
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Handily there are hundreds of £ms of Govt money being wasted on some scheme involving Rwanda that could be diverted.
 
Sheik djibouti said:
Or more accurately, James Cleverly fanboy, as he;s the one who called it batshit crazy ;)
@Eric Blair apologies if the idea of being a fan of Jimmy Dimly brings you out in hives
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When I am older I want to be just like James Cleverly (i.e. over promoted and overpaid).

I didnt realise that's what @LowerSouth meant. Yes, it was a James Cleverly line on the policy he now has to promote.
 
Marston Road yellow said:
Let’s say we do that how would anyone arriving support themselves?

If you stop benefits and stop people working then you force them into a black market job or criminality as they would literally have no choice.
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Alternative view - they might just not turn up.
Force them into the "black market jobs & criminality" that said illegal arrivals already end up in?

QR said:
He probably expects them to just put up with starvation (it's character building see) like see.... those who can't work due to a disability...or a mental health issue... or being a full-time unpaid carer. You get the drift.
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So you support importing people to take more than they give? That`ll work out well.

Stick an empty ferry in Dover - any undocumented/illegal arrivals load them on the ferry and drop them off in France. Cheap, humane, efficient.
 
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