Sport Azeem Rafiq - oh dear!

Maybe Rafiq should be brought back before the parliamentary committee to explain himself. What abuse he received was abhorrent so why should he be allowed to to come out with such comments. What goes round comes round.
 
bazzer9461 said:
Maybe Rafiq should be brought back before the parliamentary committee to explain himself. What abuse he received was abhorrent so why should he be allowed to to come out with such comments. What goes round comes round.
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He has openly apologised for the language he used, and whilst not looking to defend it he has said that it happened when he was 19 and has become a better person since then. What more do you want him to say?

And the notion that what goes around comes around is ridiculous victim blaming. If someone got badly beaten up by a group of people you wouldn't blame them because they punched someone several years earlier.

This is all about deflecting the attention away from Yorkshire CC and trying to undermine real concerns of racism in the game and wider society.
 
Scotchegg said:
He has openly apologised for the language he used, and whilst not looking to defend it he has said that it happened when he was 19 and has become a better person since then. What more do you want him to say?

And the notion that what goes around comes around is ridiculous victim blaming. If someone got badly beaten up by a group of people you wouldn't blame them because they punched someone several years earlier.

This is all about deflecting the attention away from Yorkshire CC and trying to undermine real concerns of racism in the game and wider society.
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Nope, it is not "victim blaming" it is a statement of facts.

He was anti-semitic/racist in the past and has apologised.

He was the victim of racism and that is being dealt with.

Two wrongs do not make a right.

People being racist is what creates racism!
 
Essexyellows said:
Nope, it is not "victim blaming" it is a statement of facts.

He was anti-semitic/racist in the past and has apologised.

He was the victim of racism and that is being dealt with.

Two wrongs do not make a right.

People being racist is what creates racism!
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It is victim blaming when you say that he deserves what he got because of something he had done before.

"What goes around, comes around" clearly implies that the way he was treated was a consequence of his previous actions, and that is very clearly untrue. These were 2 separate and very different situations and putting them together and equal is a conscious or unconscious way to minimise the impact of racism.

"People being racist is what creates racism" is far too simplistic and also misses the point. Racism is the systemic discrimination of people based on their race, colour, appearance etc. That is far wider than one person's comments or actions.
 
Scotchegg said:
He has openly apologised for the language he used, and whilst not looking to defend it he has said that it happened when he was 19 and has become a better person since then. What more do you want him to say?

And the notion that what goes around comes around is ridiculous victim blaming. If someone got badly beaten up by a group of people you wouldn't blame them because they punched someone several years earlier.

This is all about deflecting the attention away from Yorkshire CC and trying to undermine real concerns of racism in the game and wider society.
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No it’s not defecting anything away from Yorkshire CC Tragically racism is very rife in sport. My post was in no way trying to turn anything away from the abuse he suffered which as I said was abhorrent.
He may have been 19 at the Tune and at a young age it can be impressionable.
The point I was making without trying to deflect any balms was not everyone is innocent.
An apology is fine and the Jewish community had come out and accepted that it was in Rafiqs’ younger days and he has apologised.
 
bazzer9461 said:
No it’s not defecting anything away from Yorkshire CC Tragically racism is very rife in sport. My post was in no way trying to turn anything away from the abuse he suffered which as I said was abhorrent.
He may have been 19 at the Tune and at a young age it can be impressionable.
The point I was making without trying to deflect any balms was not everyone is innocent.
An apology is fine and the Jewish community had come out and accepted that it was in Rafiqs’ younger days and he has apologised.
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It's something that gets lost in not just these discussions but so many others, but not being "innocent" is not the same as being "guilty" of everything.

Rafiq was naive and wrongly used stereotypes about Jewish people on an open social media forum. He has said that he has become a better person since then and we should take that at face value.

I have made racist jokes in the past and judged people purely on their ethnicity. However, I have also realised that this was wrong and hope that I am a better person too. The Prison Service has some of the most damaged and dangerous people that exist (and that's just the staff!!!) but you soon realise that they are still people. I have dealt with some incredible murderers and absolutely vile burglars. And I can honestly say that race, religion, culture, age, gender, sexuality or any other protective characteristics have absolutely no bearing on whether or not someone is an A*****e!

We all have a past, and none of us are truly innocent. But that shouldn't prevent us looking to be better now or in the future. Racism exists not just because of people making racist comments but because the fact that many others turn a blind eye to it. We all need to challenge racism, and even more so if we aren't innocent ourselves.
 
Scotchegg said:
It's something that gets lost in not just these discussions but so many others, but not being "innocent" is not the same as being "guilty" of everything.

Rafiq was naive and wrongly used stereotypes about Jewish people on an open social media forum. He has said that he has become a better person since then and we should take that at face value.

I have made racist jokes in the past and judged people purely on their ethnicity. However, I have also realised that this was wrong and hope that I am a better person too. The Prison Service has some of the most damaged and dangerous people that exist (and that's just the staff!!!) but you soon realise that they are still people. I have dealt with some incredible murderers and absolutely vile burglars. And I can honestly say that race, religion, culture, age, gender, sexuality or any other protective characteristics have absolutely no bearing on whether or not someone is an A*****e!

We all have a past, and none of us are truly innocent. But that shouldn't prevent us looking to be better now or in the future. Racism exists not just because of people making racist comments but because the fact that many others turn a blind eye to it. We all need to challenge racism, and even more so if we aren't innocent ourselves.
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Totally agree, growing up in the 60’s and 70’s all this racism and prejudice was unfortunately brief back then, but no excuse and you could get away with it, mind you could get away with lots of things back then. But being so young in the 60’s and a teenager in the 70’s you don’t realise what we are all doing.
We all look back on ourselves and cringe at some of our behaviour.
Things have come along way since then and for the better. But there will always be racism and prejudice.
I mentioned a while back on this forum saying them at the taking of the knee I think has run it’s course and got called racist which I’m my opinion is B*****s. My reasoning for saying that was because a lot of teams are not always doing it and the “ kick it out “ was fine and we should stick with that.
I may and probably missed it but why now has Rafiq brought this out, listening to his testimony on parliament was harrowing, but surely he should have made a big thing of this at the time.
Also when this enquiry is over I hope Yorkshire CC get clobbered.
 
bazzer9461 said:
Totally agree, growing up in the 60’s and 70’s all this racism and prejudice was unfortunately brief back then, but no excuse and you could get away with it, mind you could get away with lots of things back then. But being so young in the 60’s and a teenager in the 70’s you don’t realise what we are all doing.
We all look back on ourselves and cringe at some of our behaviour.
Things have come along way since then and for the better. But there will always be racism and prejudice.
I mentioned a while back on this forum saying them at the taking of the knee I think has run it’s course and got called racist which I’m my opinion is B*****s. My reasoning for saying that was because a lot of teams are not always doing it and the “ kick it out “ was fine and we should stick with that.
I may and probably missed it but why now has Rafiq brought this out, listening to his testimony on parliament was harrowing, but surely he should have made a big thing of this at the time.
Also when this enquiry is over I hope Yorkshire CC get clobbered.
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The point of taking the knee is not for you or I to judge. The clubs/players choose to do it and I respect their right to do so. If we decide to no longer do it, then I will also respect that. What I won't do is boo or disrespect this.

With Azeem Rafiq, I don't know enough about the background to understand why this has come out now. However we shouldn't underestimate the impact it had simply because he didn't speak out at the time. Bullying (racial or otherwise) destroys someone's self worth and makes them feel like they don't matter. He may not have felt able to raise concerns, or didn't have the strength to fight that particular battle. Now that he has that strength, his voice deserves to be heard.
 
Scotchegg said:
It is victim blaming when you say that he deserves what he got because of something he had done before.

"What goes around, comes around" clearly implies that the way he was treated was a consequence of his previous actions, and that is very clearly untrue. These were 2 separate and very different situations and putting them together and equal is a conscious or unconscious way to minimise the impact of racism.

"People being racist is what creates racism" is far too simplistic and also misses the point. Racism is the systemic discrimination of people based on their race, colour, appearance etc. That is far wider than one person's comments or actions.
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People are what cause racism.

He did what he did - it was racism.

He suffered what he did - it was racism.

It's the people within NOT the oft-touted "institutional racism".

Make the people better humans the rest follows.
 
I`ll take a fair bet that a lot of folk on here sang along to "Chicken George" at the Manor.

Were they "racist"? No, not all of them.

Was it meant in a supportive and endearing way? Absolutely.

Would it work now? Absolutely not.

Most of us have become better humans.
 
This is all classic far-right what-about-isms.

Firstly Azeem Rafiq's post when he was 19 was wrong. It was made on social media, not in the workplace - plus he has apologised for it, and deeply regrets it. I've done thing when I was 19 that I now regret, as I'm sure have many others - thankfully social media wasn't invented back then.

I can't stand this 'Social Media from 10 years ago witch-hunt' that is going on. By all means bring it up, give the player a chance to apologise - and then draw a line under it and move on. Stop dragging up the past - very few people are whiter than white.

What happened at Yorkshire CCC however was systematic racism, which he has reported to YCCC - and they dismissed it as 'banter'. He reported it the ECB, and they said it was a YCCC matter and couldn't help. This is far worse.

It's one thing making racist comments to a few mates on social media, it's a totally different thing bullying and creating a toxic working environment where you are treated as subhuman due to the colour of your skin or religion. Especially when your employers fail to take action, and dismiss it as just 'banter'.
 
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I see one of the complaints is calling an overseas players Kevin to avoid the difficult first name.
When I was at university in th 1990s a lot of the SE Asian student picked an English name to be called by presumably to make it easier to remember for the rest of the class.

Was this "Kevin" picked by the overseas player or the home-grown players? Was it a deliberately unfashionable name from the 1970s that is less popular now?

I remember the other year there was a case of a white English sports player playing overseas in South Africa or India who had been given a nickname which he thought was just "whitey", but turned out to be a bit more derogatory.
 
MarkG said:
I see one of the complaints is calling an overseas players Kevin to avoid the difficult first name.
When I was at university in th 1990s a lot of the SE Asian student picked an English name to be called by presumably to make it easier to remember for the rest of the class.

Was this "Kevin" picked by the overseas player or the home-grown players? Was it a deliberately unfashionable name from the 1970s that is less popular now?

I remember the other year there was a case of a white English sports player playing overseas in South Africa or India who had been given a nickname which he thought was just "whitey", but turned out to be a bit more derogatory.
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You are mixing your 'Kevin' up with your 'Steve' in the stories. Jack Brooks was calling Cheteshwar Pujara 'Steve' as he couldn't pronounce his name, 'Kevin' was allegedly what Hales and Ballance called 'black people'.

As for your point, I work for a Japanese company and a lot of the top-ranking Japanese members of staff select an 'English' name to be referred by, so I guess this is a common thing. Which is fine as they have done so themselves. I believe that Pujara didn't like Brooks calling him 'Steve' - not sure if he vocalised this at the time or not. From what I've read, I wouldn't say this was racist but more of a 'nickname' type of thing.
 
SteMerritt said:
You are mixing your 'Kevin' up with your 'Steve' in the stories. Jack Brooks was calling Cheteshwar Pujara 'Steve' as he couldn't pronounce his name, 'Kevin' was allegedly what Hales and Ballance called 'black people'.

As for your point, I work for a Japanese company and a lot of the top-ranking Japanese members of staff select an 'English' name to be referred by, so I guess this is a common thing. Which is fine as they have done so themselves. I believe that Pujara didn't like Brooks calling him 'Steve' - not sure if he vocalised this at the time or not. From what I've read, I wouldn't say this was racist but more of a 'nickname' type of thing.
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I heard he asked him not call him that and yet they continued.
 
boogaloo said:
What happened at Yorkshire CCC however was systematic racism, which he has reported to YCCC - and they dismissed it as 'banter'. He reported it the ECB, and they said it was a YCCC matter and couldn't help. This is far worse..
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Great example of definitions here. The systematic racism was carried out by individuals. The dismissal as banter is one kind of institutional racism, and the lack of action of ECB is the most insidious type of institutional racism.
@EY institutional racism exists and is not perpetrated by individuals. That’s why it has a different name and means something very different.
 
Scotchegg said:
The point of taking the knee is not for you or I to judge. The clubs/players choose to do it and I respect their right to do so. If we decide to no longer do it, then I will also respect that. What I won't do is boo or disrespect this.

With Azeem Rafiq, I don't know enough about the background to understand why this has come out now. However we shouldn't underestimate the impact it had simply because he didn't speak out at the time. Bullying (racial or otherwise) destroys someone's self worth and makes them feel like they don't matter. He may not have felt able to raise concerns, or didn't have the strength to fight that particular battle. Now that he has that strength, his voice deserves to be heard.
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I won’t boo either.
As regards racism or bullying in this case maybe he felt the whole of Yorkshire CC board members were either just as in their language toward him or felt they would just dismiss his claim.
 
chuckbert said:
Great example of definitions here. The systematic racism was carried out by individuals. The dismissal as banter is one kind of institutional racism, and the lack of action of ECB is the most insidious type of institutional racism.
@EY institutional racism exists and is not perpetrated by individuals. That’s why it has a different name and means something very different.
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The lack of action and dismissal of racism as "banter" was a choice made by people.

That infers they themselves are racist or perpetrating racism. The people.

Make people better humans and the institution no longer has a problem.
 
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