International News Immigration

The harsh reality.......

I`m sure the "where there is blame there's a claim" leeches will be on it soon.

And the legal routes to enter the UK.

We can not have thousands of people entering the UK who aren`t "on the system" both for their benefit and the services they may need to use.
 
The French have a point though. If the U.K. wasn’t such attractive destination less would be interested in coming here.
Is the solution reducing benefits?
 
The French have a point though. If the U.K. wasn’t such attractive destination less would be interested in coming here.
Is the solution reducing benefits?

Only if you believe that people are willing to risk their lives and travel halfway round the globe for the sole intention of becoming wards of state.

But no-one takes the Daily Mail that seriously, do they?
 
There is nothing wrong with being an attractive place to want to migrate to, likewise, there is nothing wrong with a state benefit system.

The balance to that is legitimate, managed, and controlled migration.
 
It is still a significantly smaller number than other countries in Europe are taking and miniscule compared to countries neighbouring displaced populations.

Still...a few people freezing in a dinghy makes for awfully good pictorial/TV news, so that's why it has become such a big issue (not to mention a useful distraction for the government from their numerous other serious shortcomings/incompetence). If only someone had a useful diagram of how to turn a molehill into a mountain....[emoji6]

So if we provide safe and legal routes (and no they do not really exist) for people to enter and these people are coming to be economically active (which is overwhelmingly the case)...whilst we have a labour shortage.... where's the problem?

Don't fall for all this "we're full up" nonsense. That makes no sense. We cannot fill jobs and we don't have enough people willing to be economically active in the UK to fill them here already (and lord knows we still need to fill the gap left by Brexit)......and guess what, the Treasury will also be a winner too.

The only downside I can see is for those who don't want anyone forrin coming here "stealing our jobs" (the ones we can't be arsed to do in the first place)...and the underlying reasons for that mindset are numerous and often rather unpleasant.
There is a housing stock crisis, and the population of London is about 3m higher than it was in 1990.
 
There is nothing wrong with being an attractive place to want to migrate to, likewise, there is nothing wrong with a state benefit system.

The balance to that is legitimate, managed, and controlled migration.
Brexit-voting fascist wanting reasonable legal and controlled migration, you should be ashamed Essex.
 
There is a housing stock crisis, and the population of London is about 3m higher than it was in 1990.
There are also millions of empty houses across the country, not to mention millions of square metres of redundant office and retail space in towns and cities across the UK, all ripe for conversion for dwelling (already happening in many places).

Go figure 🤷‍♂️
 
Brexit-voting fascist wanting reasonable legal and controlled migration, you should be ashamed Essex.
But everyone wants controlled and legal migration, surely you can grasp that much 🤷‍♂️

The difference will always be that Brexit voting xenophobes (NB - not all Brexit voters are xenophobes, but at a guess all xenophobes who voted in the referendum, voted Brexit) want next to nobody, because for some bizarre reason some of them feel threatened by people who look and sound different and that might destroy the lovely 1950's chocolate box world in which (they think) they exist (unless they can do my plumbing/build my extension/wash my car and do it cash in hand....am I right lads and lasses?).

By contrast. the lefty liberal bleeding hearts want to open the doors to everyone with a sob story...and give them good quality housing....and shower them in benefits....and free healthcare....and free education....! And all the while the xenophobes are sneering at their naivety for not realising that many of these "sob stories" are actually just here to rob/molest your granny or sell your kid drugs. Not to mention this is all happening while we can't even "look after our own" - it's a disgrace I tell you!!

But then we have more rational thinking people who realise there is a balance to be struck, but agreeing where that balance should be will always cause disagreement.

- Too "fascist" and not only do we increase risk of what we're seeing unfold in the channel now, but we run the risk of putting many of those with a real legitimate claim for asylum in peril and at the mercy of organised crime (on both sides of the channel).
- Too "libtard" and you risk overwhelming communities and services provided for them, not to mention risking some pretty dubious characters secreting themselves among the arrivals.

It will not surprise you to know I don't think we have the balance right at the moment. Too many seriously desperate people are taking seriously desperate measures to come here (and yes because we are an attractive destination and yes because they may already have family who are already legitimately here). That is still an exceptionally small fraction of those who have been displaced, and far, far smaller than many of our European counterparts are taking. We clearly have an economic need and overwhelmingly those who are here want to be net contributors to our economy. If they help us achieve the Holy Grail of increased productivity then we all will be winners (our historically low productivity IS our biggest achilles heel right now). Net contributors also help to build the services our communities need (if the government choose to use the extra revenue in that way of course). And yes, migrant from EU countries WERE net contributors to our economy - we got more from them than they ever took from us.

If you are wondering in a few years time why Germany is continuing to whip our a**e when it comes to productivity and GDP, then it would be good to remember just many migrants they have taken in to help them achieve it! The reality is that strong economies have always been built to some degree on migrant workers - not that we should overlook how they have often been treated as migrant workers, but that's a separate debate.

So there has to be a balance on what genuine migrant cases actually need from us and what we as a country also need from them. We may never agree, but compromise is the key to any difficult decisions in life. My concern is that this government, more than many through recent political history, hate any form of compromise and invariably try the my way or no way approach (hence the posturing by Pritti and Bojo which has achieved the square root of fuckall and probably taken us backwards). They are also playing to an audience whipped up to believe this is a massive issue by those, such as our friends at the Daily Mail, Daily (Nationalist) Express and such, and those like Farage, Katie Hopkins and the chap who calls himself "The Little Patriot" - who gives "rousing" speeches on beaches at the "front line".

All of this creates the illusion that desperate people (or illegal immigrants as they are referred to by the above in an effort to dehumanise them) arriving in rubber boats are figures of hate, mistrust and "enemies of the people". The narrative has been carefully controlled to the point that it is extremely difficult to counter without seriously raising tensions - it is too controversial for many. It does not help that the art of debate and reasoning, particularly on this subject, has long since been lost - your're either for or against and never the twain shall meet. IMHO, it firstly needs people to step back take a breath avail themselves of the facts around this and the life stories of those who are making these perilous journeys, and try to have a adult conversation over the best way to resolve. Not least of all looking at why so may people are being displaced in the first place....not that we can necessarily solve that!

If we do not tackle this sensibly and rationally now, we are in for some extremely rough times in future, because we are yet to see any real influx of climate refugees. This has the potential to absolutely dwarf what some currently perceive as an issue, when whole regions are potentially displaced.
 
Good post ^^^

But how do we get to the right balance and at what point does everyone agree that a specific number per annum is the right number?

Whichever “balance“ is reached, there will still be those that have been rejected access to the U.K. via legal channels and so will revert to these dangerous crossings.
 
But everyone wants controlled and legal migration, surely you can grasp that much 🤷‍♂️

The difference will always be that Brexit voting xenophobes (NB - not all Brexit voters are xenophobes, but at a guess all xenophobes who voted in the referendum, voted Brexit) want next to nobody, because for some bizarre reason some of them feel threatened by people who look and sound different and that might destroy the lovely 1950's chocolate box world in which (they think) they exist (unless they can do my plumbing/build my extension/wash my car and do it cash in hand....am I right lads and lasses?).

By contrast. the lefty liberal bleeding hearts want to open the doors to everyone with a sob story...and give them good quality housing....and shower them in benefits....and free healthcare....and free education....! And all the while the xenophobes are sneering at their naivety for not realising that many of these "sob stories" are actually just here to rob/molest your granny or sell your kid drugs. Not to mention this is all happening while we can't even "look after our own" - it's a disgrace I tell you!!

But then we have more rational thinking people who realise there is a balance to be struck, but agreeing where that balance should be will always cause disagreement.

- Too "fascist" and not only do we increase risk of what we're seeing unfold in the channel now, but we run the risk of putting many of those with a real legitimate claim for asylum in peril and at the mercy of organised crime (on both sides of the channel).
- Too "libtard" and you risk overwhelming communities and services provided for them, not to mention risking some pretty dubious characters secreting themselves among the arrivals.

It will not surprise you to know I don't think we have the balance right at the moment. Too many seriously desperate people are taking seriously desperate measures to come here (and yes because we are an attractive destination and yes because they may already have family who are already legitimately here). That is still an exceptionally small fraction of those who have been displaced, and far, far smaller than many of our European counterparts are taking. We clearly have an economic need and overwhelmingly those who are here want to be net contributors to our economy. If they help us achieve the Holy Grail of increased productivity then we all will be winners (our historically low productivity IS our biggest achilles heel right now). Net contributors also help to build the services our communities need (if the government choose to use the extra revenue in that way of course). And yes, migrant from EU countries WERE net contributors to our economy - we got more from them than they ever took from us.

If you are wondering in a few years time why Germany is continuing to whip our a**e when it comes to productivity and GDP, then it would be good to remember just many migrants they have taken in to help them achieve it! The reality is that strong economies have always been built to some degree on migrant workers - not that we should overlook how they have often been treated as migrant workers, but that's a separate debate.

So there has to be a balance on what genuine migrant cases actually need from us and what we as a country also need from them. We may never agree, but compromise is the key to any difficult decisions in life. My concern is that this government, more than many through recent political history, hate any form of compromise and invariably try the my way or no way approach (hence the posturing by Pritti and Bojo which has achieved the square root of fuckall and probably taken us backwards). They are also playing to an audience whipped up to believe this is a massive issue by those, such as our friends at the Daily Mail, Daily (Nationalist) Express and such, and those like Farage, Katie Hopkins and the chap who calls himself "The Little Patriot" - who gives "rousing" speeches on beaches at the "front line".

All of this creates the illusion that desperate people (or illegal immigrants as they are referred to by the above in an effort to dehumanise them) arriving in rubber boats are figures of hate, mistrust and "enemies of the people". The narrative has been carefully controlled to the point that it is extremely difficult to counter without seriously raising tensions - it is too controversial for many. It does not help that the art of debate and reasoning, particularly on this subject, has long since been lost - your're either for or against and never the twain shall meet. IMHO, it firstly needs people to step back take a breath avail themselves of the facts around this and the life stories of those who are making these perilous journeys, and try to have a adult conversation over the best way to resolve. Not least of all looking at why so may people are being displaced in the first place....not that we can necessarily solve that!

If we do not tackle this sensibly and rationally now, we are in for some extremely rough times in future, because we are yet to see any real influx of climate refugees. This has the potential to absolutely dwarf what some currently perceive as an issue, when whole regions are potentially displaced.
Understandably as you seek to make a case you have omitted how our own overseas adventures in the Middle East have made such a contribution to the abject shambles we are daily reminded of; the Sykes/Picot ‘deal’, the Palestine/Israel tragedy and latterly Afghanistan debacle. We are doing our best, of course, to wipe the history slate clean, draw a line and arrange mind blowing deals with the rest of the world who will be queueing up to buy in to our world-class products/services.
 
Understandably as you seek to make a case you have omitted how our own overseas adventures in the Middle East have made such a contribution to the abject shambles we are daily reminded of; the Sykes/Picot ‘deal’, the Palestine/Israel tragedy and latterly Afghanistan debacle. We are doing our best, of course, to wipe the history slate clean, draw a line and arrange mind blowing deals with the rest of the world who will be queueing up to buy in to our world-class products/services.

The post was long enough...too long in the opinion of many, I would guess[emoji23]

The omission was only for brevity and of course the reasons why we are where we are will be equally complex, including the way we have traditionally conducted our business around the globe. We are far from an innocent party in the causes, without any shadow of doubt!

Current attempts to revise that will not play out well I suspect and given where we currently are with our attempts at "Global Britain" would think we will find many have long memories...
 
Good post ^^^

But how do we get to the right balance and at what point does everyone agree that a specific number per annum is the right number?

Whichever “balance“ is reached, there will still be those that have been rejected access to the U.K. via legal channels and so will revert to these dangerous crossings.
That's kind of the point. We will never agree a number or where that fulcrum is. We won't ever all agree

I dare say we won't (can't) lurch ever further towards tightening restrictions and being ever more hostile without falling ever further towards being a nationalist state with xenophobic tendencies. By the same token, simply shouting "come on in!" across the channel will not be accepted either. I've no idea where that balance is, but it must be based on individual cases and what they/we need!

What we do need to do is start dismantling the mountain that has been made of this particular molehill (ref Essex yellows diagram[emoji6]) and make the whole topic less charged and less frothy. Unfortunately it is manna from heaven for those of a xenophobic disposition, every bit as much as it makes heart rending media copy for this who just want to help everyone.

But surely some sense of balance can be found IF we are more rational and frankly more grown up about it....We need to stop the histrionic reaction as well as putting the whole situation in context of just how big (or small) an issue it really is in the grand scheme of things.
 
There are also millions of empty houses across the country, not to mention millions of square metres of redundant office and retail space in towns and cities across the UK, all ripe for conversion for dwelling (already happening in many places).

Go figure 🤷‍♂️
Even if we assume you are right about redundant office and retail space (jesus how depressing if town centres completely die and all become housing), where's the money coming from for the new roads, rail services, schools, hospitals etc?
Will integration be peaceful?

It's not as simple as letting everyone in and getting on with it. You have to have limits.
 
But everyone wants controlled and legal migration, surely you can grasp that much 🤷‍♂️

The difference will always be that Brexit voting xenophobes (NB - not all Brexit voters are xenophobes, but at a guess all xenophobes who voted in the referendum, voted Brexit) want next to nobody, because for some bizarre reason some of them feel threatened by people who look and sound different and that might destroy the lovely 1950's chocolate box world in which (they think) they exist (unless they can do my plumbing/build my extension/wash my car and do it cash in hand....am I right lads and lasses?).

By contrast. the lefty liberal bleeding hearts want to open the doors to everyone with a sob story...and give them good quality housing....and shower them in benefits....and free healthcare....and free education....! And all the while the xenophobes are sneering at their naivety for not realising that many of these "sob stories" are actually just here to rob/molest your granny or sell your kid drugs. Not to mention this is all happening while we can't even "look after our own" - it's a disgrace I tell you!!

But then we have more rational thinking people who realise there is a balance to be struck, but agreeing where that balance should be will always cause disagreement.

- Too "fascist" and not only do we increase risk of what we're seeing unfold in the channel now, but we run the risk of putting many of those with a real legitimate claim for asylum in peril and at the mercy of organised crime (on both sides of the channel).
- Too "libtard" and you risk overwhelming communities and services provided for them, not to mention risking some pretty dubious characters secreting themselves among the arrivals.

It will not surprise you to know I don't think we have the balance right at the moment. Too many seriously desperate people are taking seriously desperate measures to come here (and yes because we are an attractive destination and yes because they may already have family who are already legitimately here). That is still an exceptionally small fraction of those who have been displaced, and far, far smaller than many of our European counterparts are taking. We clearly have an economic need and overwhelmingly those who are here want to be net contributors to our economy. If they help us achieve the Holy Grail of increased productivity then we all will be winners (our historically low productivity IS our biggest achilles heel right now). Net contributors also help to build the services our communities need (if the government choose to use the extra revenue in that way of course). And yes, migrant from EU countries WERE net contributors to our economy - we got more from them than they ever took from us.

If you are wondering in a few years time why Germany is continuing to whip our a**e when it comes to productivity and GDP, then it would be good to remember just many migrants they have taken in to help them achieve it! The reality is that strong economies have always been built to some degree on migrant workers - not that we should overlook how they have often been treated as migrant workers, but that's a separate debate.

So there has to be a balance on what genuine migrant cases actually need from us and what we as a country also need from them. We may never agree, but compromise is the key to any difficult decisions in life. My concern is that this government, more than many through recent political history, hate any form of compromise and invariably try the my way or no way approach (hence the posturing by Pritti and Bojo which has achieved the square root of fuckall and probably taken us backwards). They are also playing to an audience whipped up to believe this is a massive issue by those, such as our friends at the Daily Mail, Daily (Nationalist) Express and such, and those like Farage, Katie Hopkins and the chap who calls himself "The Little Patriot" - who gives "rousing" speeches on beaches at the "front line".

All of this creates the illusion that desperate people (or illegal immigrants as they are referred to by the above in an effort to dehumanise them) arriving in rubber boats are figures of hate, mistrust and "enemies of the people". The narrative has been carefully controlled to the point that it is extremely difficult to counter without seriously raising tensions - it is too controversial for many. It does not help that the art of debate and reasoning, particularly on this subject, has long since been lost - your're either for or against and never the twain shall meet. IMHO, it firstly needs people to step back take a breath avail themselves of the facts around this and the life stories of those who are making these perilous journeys, and try to have a adult conversation over the best way to resolve. Not least of all looking at why so may people are being displaced in the first place....not that we can necessarily solve that!

If we do not tackle this sensibly and rationally now, we are in for some extremely rough times in future, because we are yet to see any real influx of climate refugees. This has the potential to absolutely dwarf what some currently perceive as an issue, when whole regions are potentially displaced.
I actually think this is a good post Sheik, the only thing I question is when people seem to think GDP and productivity is the best measure of a happy and cohesive society. It's actually something Tories harp on about all the time. Just adding X amount to the GDP won't do anything for most people particularly those on lower-paying jobs.
 
, the only thing I question is when people seem to think GDP and productivity is the best measure of a happy and cohesive society. It's actually something Tories harp on about all the time. Just adding X amount to the GDP won't do anything for most people particularly those on lower-paying jobs.

Tend to agree with this.

GDP is more a political tool/calculation to either pat yourself on the back with or be prodded with a stick by (see Brexit thread)

Realistically, how much people actually perceive it to change their quality of life is negligible.
 
Tend to agree with this.

GDP is more a political tool/calculation to either pat yourself on the back with or be prodded with a stick by (see Brexit thread)

Realistically, how much people actually perceive it to change their quality of life is negligible.
Yep strong agreement with this MC.

Previous Tory govs love banging on about GDP whilst many people in the country are struggling to get by, miserable, and living in difficult communities. It's not a measure of success I've ever taken much interest in myself.
 
Tend to agree with this.

GDP is more a political tool/calculation to either pat yourself on the back with or be prodded with a stick by (see Brexit thread)

Realistically, how much people actually perceive it to change their quality of life is negligible.
I do agree with that. It is a very clumsy measure, but if you want to dispell the myth that migrants are net beneficiaries as opposed to net contributors, then it is one measure.

We aren't even scratching the surface on community impact and social cohesion, but some of this at least will be made all the more difficult to achieve/manage, if you are of the mindset that migrants are coming here to take our jobs while simultaneously stealing our benefits/burdening our services.
 
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