International News Russian War With Ukraine

[Scotchegg]

Sophisticated weaponry doesn't mean no civilian deaths. A bomb is a bomb, a missile is a missile - hit a building, no matter how targeted, in a populous area and there's always a strong possibility for collateral, or consequences for those beyond your intended target.

As for the aid workers, Israel have taken responsibility for it but based on what I have seen they seemingly don't know how or why it happened. I think I read last night there will be an investigation to determine the circumstances of it. I did see someone suggest that most of the time aid groups have certain authorised places to go/routes to take, and that potentially the vehicles in question weren't on that authorised route so the vehicles were assumed stolen by Hamas/being used for other purposes. Complete speculation but we'll have to wait to know the actual circumstances.

The route was approved, as was the times when the vehicle were used. All were clearly identified. One vehicle was hit by a missile from a drone. Survivors of that attack managed to make their way to a second vehicle which was then hit. Further up the road, a third vehicle was then hit.

This was an execution on clearly identifiable, approved aid workers. Not once, not twice, but three times in separate targeted killings.

This wasn't a rogue and inexperienced IDF reservist mistakenly shooting at the wrong target whilst engaging legitimate targets. This wasn't a mistake.

This was a deliberately targeted execution of those bring aid into Gaza for the sole purpose of intimating other aid agencies to stay away. And it was carried out and approved by very senior members of the IDF.

Stop looking for excuses.

 

[Marked Ox]

An attack committed by the Government of another territory. Some would correctly describe that as an act of war.

As previously stated using international law, there's no proof (thus far) they've committed war crimes. They certainly haven't been found guilty of any. Again, attacking a hospital is not a 'war crime' in itself. Israel has provided internationally accepted proof that hospitals, their grounds, and tunnels beneath them have been being used by Hamas, making them legitimate military targets - if you have a problem with this then your problem is with Hamas, not Israel!

Hamas attacked Israel. Ukraine didn't attack Russia. To describe self defence as 'just as bad' as an unprovoked invasion is an odd assessment to say the least.

Both parties have been attacking each other for decades. Israel has occupied Gaza before, prior to this latest part of the conflict, it controlled and continues to control Gaza's borders. It has staged military interventions quite regularly.

Have Israel conclusively demonstrated the latest Hospital they've destroyed over 2 weeks has anything to do with Hamas? I haven't seen anything that says that. It just seems to be a continual degradation of infrastructure, something Russia rightly got criticised for when they've done it.

Is it alright that West Bank Palestinians attack Israel through self defence? Considering the Israeli Govt is actively stealing Palestinian land (a big chunk last week or so) in the West Bank and enabling Israeli settlers to steal more through IDF support. And has been for many years. Israel has 000s of hostages through West Bank Palestinians being held without charge indefinitely or through the minority that have been convicted (an impossible 99% conviction rate) by a closed military court where the Palestinians have no rights. Oh, and those detainees get tortured.

And members of the Israeli Govt have already been talking to Settler groups about Gaza if the Settler groups themselves are to be believed.

This attack by Hamas was not a standalone event that precipitated everything. This conflict has been ongoing for many decades, after all the PLO were around for a long time before Hamas. Netanyahu was happy to use Hamas early on to breakup the PLO.

There are evil bastards on both sides of this conflict. The Israeli hostages need to be returned but then Israel needs to be held to account for their own actions of land theft, taking of hostages, engineering a famine etc.

I'm holding Israel to the same standards as others, it is utterly lazy and tedious on your part to claim that is why people are calling out Israel for their actions.

 

[Marked Ox]

Sophisticated weaponry doesn't mean no civilian deaths. A bomb is a bomb, a missile is a missile - hit a building, no matter how targeted, in a populous area and there's always a strong possibility for collateral, or consequences for those beyond your intended target.

As for the aid workers, Israel have taken responsibility for it but based on what I have seen they seemingly don't know how or why it happened. I think I read last night there will be an investigation to determine the circumstances of it. I did see someone suggest that most of the time aid groups have certain authorised places to go/routes to take, and that potentially the vehicles in question weren't on that authorised route so the vehicles were assumed stolen by Hamas/being used for other purposes. Complete speculation but we'll have to wait to know the actual circumstances.

The Aid Workers had just dropped approximately 100 tonnes of Aid at a WKC storage compound that was known to the IDF. They communicate/prearrange with the IDF on their convoys. From what I've read (including from the WKC in various articles) the route there and back was prearranged and known of by the IDF.

This was 3 separate missiles, not one bomb that caught all 3, that hit clearly marked vehicles.

Also, it isn't a missile is a missile or a bomb is a bomb. A precision guided bomb or missile is different from a dumb bomb for instance. The IDF have chosen to use plenty of the latter rather than more guided bombs which would have significantly less collateral damage. Considering there are missiles that can hit a moving vehicle or within a metre of where they've been targeted. Israel will have plenty of such weaponry considering they are supplied by the US such as the GPS guided Paveway IV*.

*The RAF use the Pathway IV and it is manufactured for us by Raytheon UK. The IDF are supplied through Raytheon's manufacturing facilities in the US. It is a highly accurate and effective weapon.

 

[Sheik djibouti]

Netanyahu, his government and the IDF are seemingly consciously conflating the dismantling of Hamas with the dismantling of Palestinian identity. He is justifying the Israeli campaign and the tactics used to achieve his stated aim of dismantling Hamas, while not really being bothered if he achieved the latter at the same time.

There is no appetite from Netanyahu and his supporters for any kind of two state solution.

Time was when Netanyahu was seen as a right wing hardline politician in Israel. Now he and his brand of politics rule the roost and the devastation of Gaza and its civilian population is pretty much assured until Israel rid themselves of his government and there is a change of tack. Netanyahu is now lashing out in the wider region. What is he hoping to achieve by doing this?

 

[MustardYellow]

Israel also control access via crossing points into Gaza from Egypt. Nobody/or any goods are allowed into Gaza via crossing points unless Israel gives permission.

Pre-war, Israel also collected taxes for the Palestine Authorities at the crossings as they controlled them and fairly regularly used the taxes as a weapon by withholding them if the PA didn't do what they wanted or showed dissent.

Israel are actively blocking Aid, hence the US response. The US are looking to sail over a floating dock as Israel won't allow the use of a port 30 minutes away for Aid. The US have also had to drop in Aid by air which is inefficient, limits the amount that can be sent in and it is more dangerous as distribution can't be controlled (ie. Desperate Gazans have died from the aid being dropped on to them and in the desperate stampede to get food/water).

WKC (whose Aid workers got blown up) have also use a temporary dock to get supplies in as the Israelis have consistently blocked or severely limited distribution via land crossings.

The US and other allies have publically pointed out the large stocks of Aid waiting to go into Gaza that the Israelis are blocking. The famine that is already happening has been engineered by Israel by its actions. Famine has been warned about for months now by Aid agencies/the UN etc but still Israel have blocked/limited Aid supplies into Gaza.

And WKC, along with a US aid Agency (AREMA or something like that) who provide the main bulk of aid currently have suspended operations because of this attack so the famine potentially gets a lot worse and quicker.

Egypt controlled the Rafah crossing prior to the start of the war. 'On 7 September 2005, Israel withdrew from Gaza and closed the Rafah crossing. The Philadelphi Accord between Israel and Egypt, based on the principles of the 1979 peace treaty, turned over border control to Egypt'.

Aid isn't necessarily being denied, it's being delayed due to checks needing to be done on all trucks entering Gaza, and the fact Hamas are using it. Israel isn't going to willingly feed and fund their enemy - this has unfortunate consequences for the civilian population. Israel have also said even when aid is getting in, often the UN aren't distributing it. The UN says this is because it's sometimes dangerous, but of course it is... it's a war!

 

[MustardYellow]

Small area, heavily populated, heavy military intervention people will get killed AI or not. As Hamas are mixed in with the civilian population then the population will also pay the price, as will other innocent parties.

After centuries of ingrained hatred neither side will back down from the myopic view that they are right. And that applies to Gaza or Ukraine.

This is the point people miss.

Islamists are notorious for using civilians as shields and disguise. One of the problems in Afghanistan was the Taliban would wear civilian clothing, launch an attack, then just drop their weapons and blend into the crowd of civilians. Hamas are no different. There's a NATO report on Hamas' use of human shields, civilians, and civilian infrastructure: https://stratcomcoe.org/cuploads/pfiles/hamas_human_shields.pdf

This is why when people are frustrated at the civilian casualties or general damage to Gaza, they should direct that frustration at Hamas!

 

[Sheik djibouti]

"Unfortunate consequences" = Starving to death and on the brink of famine.

Jesus wept!

 

[Scotchegg]

This is the point people miss.

Islamists are notorious for using civilians as shields and disguise. One of the problems in Afghanistan was the Taliban would wear civilian clothing, launch an attack, then just drop their weapons and blend into the crowd of civilians. Hamas are no different. There's a NATO report on Hamas' use of human shields, civilians, and civilian infrastructure: https://stratcomcoe.org/cuploads/pfiles/hamas_human_shields.pdf

This is why when people are frustrated at the civilian casualties or general damage to Gaza, they should direct that frustration at Hamas!

Please educate yourself.

 

[Big Ron]

Sophisticated weaponry doesn't mean no civilian deaths. A bomb is a bomb, a missile is a missile - hit a building, no matter how targeted, in a populous area and there's always a strong possibility for collateral, or consequences for those beyond your intended target.

As for the aid workers, Israel have taken responsibility for it but based on what I have seen they seemingly don't know how or why it happened. I think I read last night there will be an investigation to determine the circumstances of it. I did see someone suggest that most of the time aid groups have certain authorised places to go/routes to take, and that potentially the vehicles in question weren't on that authorised route so the vehicles were assumed stolen by Hamas/being used for other purposes. Complete speculation but we'll have to wait to know the actual circumstances.

'I did see someone suggest' - give us an actual source not a vague rumour. Where did this 'non-authorised route' reporting came from?

Cogat, the Israeli MOD body that co-ordinates aid workers movements with the IDF said that there was 'no problem ' with the movements. Their official spokesman, Shimon Freedman called the attack a 'grave mistake' and a mistake that 'followed a misidentification'.

Read this report from The Times Of Israel - it acknowledges what actually happened with apportioning any blame to World Kitchen:

Israel acknowledges killing 7 aid charity workers in ‘tragic, unintentional’ airstrike

World Central Kitchen halts Gaza ops after 'unforgivable' Israeli bombing; victims' countries demand answers; PM says will 'do everything' to prevent recurrence; White House 'heartbroken'

www.timesofisrael.com

Your lack of compassion is staggering.

 

[Essexyellows]

"Unfortunate consequences" = Starving to death and on the brink of famine.

Jesus wept!

Read it in context - the aid is being delayed because Israel want to restrict Hamas`s access to supplies.

The consequence is that everyone suffers.

 

[MustardYellow]

The route was approved, as was the times when the vehicle were used. All were clearly identified. One vehicle was hit by a missile from a drone. Survivors of that attack managed to make their way to a second vehicle which was then hit. Further up the road, a third vehicle was then hit.

This was an execution on clearly identifiable, approved aid workers. Not once, not twice, but three times in separate targeted killings.

This wasn't a rogue and inexperienced IDF reservist mistakenly shooting at the wrong target whilst engaging legitimate targets. This wasn't a mistake.

This was a deliberately targeted execution of those bring aid into Gaza for the sole purpose of intimating other aid agencies to stay away. And it was carried out and approved by very senior members of the IDF.

Stop looking for excuses.

I've just read some more, and 2 of the 3 vehicles hit were unmarked. It doesn't say which of the vehicles the dead were in.

Interestingly, the BBC asked the WCK to provide details of the locations they told the IDF their vehicles would be, and they refused.

Israel has admitted it was a mistake. To suggest they did it 'for the sole purpose of intimating other aid agencies to stay away' is speculation being presented as fact.

 

[Big Ron]

I've just read some more, and 2 of the 3 vehicles hit were unmarked. It doesn't say which of the vehicles the dead were in.

Interestingly, the BBC asked the WCK to provide details of the locations they told the IDF their vehicles would be, and they refused.

Israel has admitted it was a mistake. To suggest they did it 'for the sole purpose of intimating other aid agencies to stay away' is speculation being presented as fact.

Why it happened is certainly open to interpretation - what happened doesn't seem to be and yet this the second email you've posted that implies that something else went on and that the WCK and its volunteers might be in part to blame for their own fate.

Across the spectrum, most of the mainstream media, including that in Israel, seem pretty consistent in their reporting but you seem to doubt that.

 

[Scotchegg]

Drone pilots had the means to swerve the bombs away, but chose not to

After the first aid worker vehicle was hit, an emergency call was made to the authorities – but it was no use, Israel’s barrage had begun

www.telegraph.co.uk

 

[Marked Ox]

Egypt controlled the Rafah crossing prior to the start of the war. 'On 7 September 2005, Israel withdrew from Gaza and closed the Rafah crossing. The Philadelphi Accord between Israel and Egypt, based on the principles of the 1979 peace treaty, turned over border control to Egypt'.

Aid isn't necessarily being denied, it's being delayed due to checks needing to be done on all trucks entering Gaza, and the fact Hamas are using it. Israel isn't going to willingly feed and fund their enemy - this has unfortunate consequences for the civilian population. Israel have also said even when aid is getting in, often the UN aren't distributing it. The UN says this is because it's sometimes dangerous, but of course it is... it's a war!

Israel controls the crossing through permits and military threat from the Kerem Shalom Military Base.

Aid is being denied, if it wasn't there wouldn't be a large scale famine developing. Even the US along with the Aussies, European countries etc, have made this point by publically talking about the piles of Aid sitting on the wrong side of the border and their actions in having to find new ways to get some in.

And the things Israel are blocking going in include medical supplies such as wound packs, crutches or tents for those having to flee with no shelter.

I wonder why the UN aren't delivering it when those who are get targeted and blown up by the IDF.....

Oh and the UN Agency (UNWRA) set up to support Palestinians has been banned by Israel.

You appear to attribute absolutely no blame whatsoever to Israel. Yet an engineered famine is a lot more than an "unfortunate consequence for the civilian population".

 

[Marked Ox]

Drone pilots had the means to swerve the bombs away, but chose not to

After the first aid worker vehicle was hit, an emergency call was made to the authorities – but it was no use, Israel’s barrage had begun

www.telegraph.co.uk

View attachment 18693

Israeli papers have said the same.

 

[Scotchegg]

If America and the UK said that they would stop providing military and political support to Israel until they committed to a temporary ceasefire in order to establish secure aid routes into Gaza, then this situation would be resolved over night and a million people would be saved.

It really is as simple as that.

 

[Wandering Yellow]

Unfortunately, over the years of its influence, propaganda has been able to convince citizens that they should either support the current government, or at least consider that there is no point for an ordinary person to try to understand “these complex processes.”

For those who do not agree with this order, various repressive laws have been prepared, which were especially strengthened with the outbreak of the war. Those who disagree ultimately have to either remain silent, leave the country, or accept imprisonment.

At the moment, it is especially difficult for me to find like-minded people around me, because I live in a city located 40 km from the border with Ukraine, so it is periodically shelled, and it is easier for the local authorities to sell people the idea that they are threatened by a dangerous enemy in the person of not only the Ukrainian armies, but Western countries.

The result is two Russian publics who disagree with the Putin regime. Some left the country to continue to speak and think freely, while others stayed to remain silent and wait for better times. It looks like two ice floes moving further and further apart. My girlfriend is trying to jump from one to another, living either in Lithuania or with me, but I am very afraid that at some point the distance for the next “jump” will become insurmountable, and we will get stuck on one of them. It’s much worse if it’s on different ones.

Is it possible you can move to Luthuania to be with your girlfriend?

Wish you all the best.

 

[MustardYellow]

Read it in context - the aid is being delayed because Israel want to restrict Hamas`s access to supplies.

The consequence is that everyone suffers.

And the reason it needs to be restricted is because Hamas

Both parties have been attacking each other for decades. Israel has occupied Gaza before, prior to this latest part of the conflict, it controlled and continues to control Gaza's borders. It has staged military interventions quite regularly.

Have Israel conclusively demonstrated the latest Hospital they've destroyed over 2 weeks has anything to do with Hamas? I haven't seen anything that says that. It just seems to be a continual degradation of infrastructure, something Russia rightly got criticised for when they've done it.

Is it alright that West Bank Palestinians attack Israel through self defence? Considering the Israeli Govt is actively stealing Palestinian land (a big chunk last week or so) in the West Bank and enabling Israeli settlers to steal more through IDF support. And has been for many years. Israel has 000s of hostages through West Bank Palestinians being held without charge indefinitely or through the minority that have been convicted (an impossible 99% conviction rate) by a closed military court where the Palestinians have no rights. Oh, and those detainees get tortured.

And members of the Israeli Govt have already been talking to Settler groups about Gaza if the Settler groups themselves are to be believed.

This attack by Hamas was not a standalone event that precipitated everything. This conflict has been ongoing for many decades, after all the PLO were around for a long time before Hamas. Netanyahu was happy to use Hamas early on to breakup the PLO.

There are evil bastards on both sides of this conflict. The Israeli hostages need to be returned but then Israel needs to be held to account for their own actions of land theft, taking of hostages, engineering a famine etc.

I'm holding Israel to the same standards as others, it is utterly lazy and tedious on your part to claim that is why people are calling out Israel for their actions.

As with most conflicts, it's a vicious cycle. Israel want to control Gaza's borders through constant (and legitimate) fear of attacks from Hamas. Part of the reason Hamas attack Israel is due to the fact they control Gaza's borders. There is no solution to that that appeases both sides.

Israel have said they've found Hamas members in the hospitals, as well as weapons, equipment, intelligence, and tunnels running under them. I'm sure when the time comes proof of this will be presented in an official capacity to a court. Until that point, any suggestion the raids constitute as a war crime are nothing more than speculation.

Out of interest though, if it's concluded there were indeed Hamas militants in the hospital and it was being used to store weapons, equipment etc etc would you concede they were legitimately raided as a military target?

Also, there are thousands of people currently imprisoned in the UK without being found guilty of a crime, and as of 2022 314 people has been in prison for 3 years or more with no conviction.

This is a situation where Israel cannot win. Do nothing after October 7th, or not respond strongly enough and they look weak not just to Hamas but to their other enemies, as well as risking emboldening them. They also look weak to their citizens and seem as though they're failing to defend them. React strong and attempt to defeat Hamas through war and they're criticised for every civilian death.

It's Islamism 101 - attack, cause death and destruction, hide behind civilians so they suffer the consequences, cry about how evil the west is, use it to legitimise your terrorism.

How people are still falling for it I'll never know.

 

[MustardYellow]

Netanyahu, his government and the IDF are seemingly consciously conflating the dismantling of Hamas with the dismantling of Palestinian identity. He is justifying the Israeli campaign and the tactics used to achieve his stated aim of dismantling Hamas, while not really being bothered if he achieved the latter at the same time.

There is no appetite from Netanyahu and his supporters for any kind of two state solution.

Time was when Netanyahu was seen as a right wing hardline politician in Israel. Now he and his brand of politics rule the roost and the devastation of Gaza and its civilian population is pretty much assured until Israel rid themselves of his government and there is a change of tack. Netanyahu is now lashing out in the wider region. What is he hoping to achieve by doing this?

We won't know that till the end of this war. It's entirely possible once the IDF believe they've beaten Hamas they just withdraw from Gaza and that's that.

It seems unlikely they re-occupy Gaza, unless it's part of a rebuilding operation supported by the international community. The west won't support a full scale occupation, so it seems counter-productive for Israel to P**s off their much needed allies for the sake of such a small piece of land.

 

[Scotchegg]

It seems unlikely they re-occupy Gaza, unless it's part of a rebuilding operation supported by the international community. The west won't support a full scale occupation, so it seems counter-productive for Israel to P**s off their much needed allies for the sake of such a small piece of land.

This is where your ignorance shines through.

Gaza is not just a small piece of land, it's a hugely significant state that Israel want to irradiate Palestinians from. Netanyahu and his hard-line Government do not want a two state solution that allows Palestine to exist. They want Gaza destroyed and have been taking parts of the West Bank by force for years.

This small piece of land is worth so much to Israel that they are deliberately starving over a million innocent civilians to get it. And so far, the west are doing nothing to stop it.