National News The Brexit Thread 🇬🇧🇪🇺

[Ian]

Is anyone considering upping roots and starting a new life in Europe, given how much negative impact Brexit is having on the quality of lives in U.K compared to Europe?

Got some friends who moved to France who are now in the process of selling up and coming back.

Could you be any less aware of the world around you?

 

[Oslernorth]

And, of course, all those benefits of joining were felt immediately weren`t they? Save you looking - No.
And, of course, the downsides of joining and the evolution of the beast showed themselves immediately? Save you looking - No it took 40+ years.

You are most welcome.

What were the downsides to joining?

 

[Essexyellows]

What were the downsides to joining?

What we joined, a free trade community, evolved into the current beast we have left.

I have no issue with a rational, sensible, tariff-free ability to trade with our neighbours in both directions but it grew far beyond trade.

 

[MC Yellow]

Any idea why they are moving back ?

Probably a mixture of things to be fair.

Grass isn’t always greener and all that.

 

[MC Yellow]

Could you be any less aware of the world around you?

You mean, am I aware of how messed up the world is on pretty much every level?

 

[Oslernorth]

What we joined, a free trade community, evolved into the current beast we have left.

I have no issue with a rational, sensible, tariff-free ability to trade with our neighbours in both directions but it grew far beyond trade.

The “current beast” is trade alignment.
The free movement of people, goods, services and money need to operate under the same rules to work.
The European institutions are the framework to make this happen.

For an over the top example: It’s incredibly inefficient to produce 27 different versions of the same product in 27 different factories to meet the different rules and regulations of 27 different European countries.
Regularly Alignment solves this when all 27 countries operate from the same set of rules.

Yes the European Union’s framework is large. A Beast if you like. But aligning the rules and regulations of all those nations is no small task. I personally think they’d done a pretty good job of it. I can’t think of many rule changes that have had a negative impact. Certainly not one that would justify leaving the entire bloc

 

[DevilsAvocado]

What were the downsides to joining?

Good morning,

Sorry for being so blunt and i`m sure there will be some denial about this but i
think that what drove people to vote for brexit was more to do with things like
ending freedom of movement and having more control of our borders than it
was about financial matters. Taking back control and oven ready deals where the
lie that the xenophobes were only too happy to hide behind and use as it made
their stance appear more calculated than emotional.

 

[SteMerritt]

I can’t think of many rule changes that have had a negative impact. Certainly not one that would justify leaving the entire bloc

Neither could EY, which is why he swerved giving you an answer

 

[Essexyellows]

The “current beast” is trade alignment.
The free movement of people, goods, services and money need to operate under the same rules to work.
The European institutions are the framework to make this happen.

For an over the top example: It’s incredibly inefficient to produce 27 different versions of the same product in 27 different factories to meet the different rules and regulations of 27 different European countries.
Regularly Alignment solves this when all 27 countries operate from the same set of rules.

Yes the European Union’s framework is large. A Beast if you like. But aligning the rules and regulations of all those nations is no small task. I personally think they’d done a pretty good job of it. I can’t think of many rule changes that have had a negative impact. Certainly not one that would justify leaving the entire bloc

Regulatory culture is a good start!

I`m in the NHS and much of the regulatory "burden" stems from EU regulations that are much more cumbersome than UK regulations were before it.
The UK approach used to be that, as long as you understood the principles and behaved in a common-sense way, you were fine.
Now we have a self-generating plethora of "regulatory bodies" many of which are funded by the taxpayer and they are self-perpetuating beasts that stifle start up`s and create a bias towards large organisations that can cope with and employ experts to deal with the paperwork.

You can throw "compliance" into that mix as well, the ever-growing amount of people (like me!) employed to proverbially speaking "tick boxes" for no apparent reason.

Complete freedom of movement is a bad thing IMHO - every state needs to know who is there and the "why & when" if only to plan basics such as housing and healthcare. The import of cheap labour is also unravelling pretty quickly which was driven by FOM.

There is more but I have several boxes to tick for some regulatory approval.............. TTFN

 

[Essexyellows]

Neither could EY, which is why he swerved giving you an answer

Pardon?

 

[Sheik djibouti]

Regulatory culture is a good start!

I`m in the NHS and much of the regulatory "burden" stems from EU regulations that are much more cumbersome than UK regulations were before it.
The UK approach used to be that, as long as you understood the principles and behaved in a common-sense way, you were fine.
Now we have a self-generating plethora of "regulatory bodies" many of which are funded by the taxpayer and they are self-perpetuating beasts that stifle start up`s and create a bias towards large organisations that can cope with and employ experts to deal with the paperwork.

You can throw "compliance" into that mix as well, the ever-growing amount of people (like me!) employed to proverbially speaking "tick boxes" for no apparent reason.

Complete freedom of movement is a bad thing IMHO - every state needs to know who is there and the "why & when" if only to plan basics such as housing and healthcare. The import of cheap labour is also unravelling pretty quickly which was driven by FOM.

There is more but I have several boxes to tick for some regulatory approval.............. TTFN

SO which regulatory burden do you specifically mean in relation to the EU that would not be required in domestic legislation in some form? I am curious, because what I can see around health, safety, environment, financial, worker and citizen protections, all would be or are part of a developed country's regulatory framework in any case. Difference being we would be pooling experience and expertese from a pool of one , as opposed to 28 and all against the background of being a hostage to changing fortunes of political flavour of government changing fairly regularly over a period of time (say, 40 years). So you end up with weak ineffectual regulation constantly being dismantled by whichever political party decides it is not their values. The alternative is to nick ur regulatory approach from one already established somewhere else in the world....like an Australian style points-based immigration system, for example.

Do you think there is a just a teensy bit of blaming Europe for stuff we'd have done to/for our selves anyway? They've been an easy target and far too reticent to stand up for what they have achieved over the last 40 years...and the sad thing is that even our current PM made his name through his dishonest and disingenuous dissing of them. It's an easy (and lazy) get out when tings go wrong to effectively say "big boys made me do it".

And nobody has ever advocated complete freedom of movement, but the ability to have a flexible labour market across a population of 550 million who are able to work where there is work to be had is a huge advantage to an economy of that size. The fact they get exploited by unscrupulous businesses is a much wider issue. That still happens in the UK outside of the EU...and in many other locations across the globe - again the EU is not the cause of this....A*****e bosses are. And again, controlling that movement of people has always been in our gift...we chose not to do all we could to control...and then (yet again) sought to deflect the blame to "those damn Europeans".

If you musings re right about "regulatory bodies" (and some concrete examples would really help your cause here), then I would expect to see a bonfire of the quango's before too long. As opposed to the reality that more are being set up as a direct result of EU exit to replace the functions once carried out by the EU....like this one, for example: https://www.gov.uk/government/news/interim-office-for-environmental-protection-to-be-launched

 

[DevilsAvocado]

Regulatory culture is a good start!

I`m in the NHS and much of the regulatory "burden" stems from EU regulations that are much more cumbersome than UK regulations were before it.
The UK approach used to be that, as long as you understood the principles and behaved in a common-sense way, you were fine.
Now we have a self-generating plethora of "regulatory bodies" many of which are funded by the taxpayer and they are self-perpetuating beasts that stifle start up`s and create a bias towards large organisations that can cope with and employ experts to deal with the paperwork.

You can throw "compliance" into that mix as well, the ever-growing amount of people (like me!) employed to proverbially speaking "tick boxes" for no apparent reason.

Complete freedom of movement is a bad thing IMHO - every state needs to know who is there and the "why & when" if only to plan basics such as housing and healthcare. The import of cheap labour is also unravelling pretty quickly which was driven by FOM.

There is more but I have several boxes to tick for some regulatory approval.............. TTFN

Going to use Belgium as an example here.

Its currently impossible for anyone without an id card to do the following.

Rent a house
Have access to medical
Open a bank account
Get issued a driving license
Claim benefits
Etc.

Stop and search would also do its bit if people failed
to show an id card on request.

The sad fact is that people were all to eager to blame the EU rather than
ask themselves if their own government could have perhaps done more.

 

[Oslernorth]

Regulatory culture is a good start!

I`m in the NHS and much of the regulatory "burden" stems from EU regulations that are much more cumbersome than UK regulations were before it.
The UK approach used to be that, as long as you understood the principles and behaved in a common-sense way, you were fine.
Now we have a self-generating plethora of "regulatory bodies" many of which are funded by the taxpayer and they are self-perpetuating beasts that stifle start up`s and create a bias towards large organisations that can cope with and employ experts to deal with the paperwork.

You can throw "compliance" into that mix as well, the ever-growing amount of people (like me!) employed to proverbially speaking "tick boxes" for no apparent reason.

Complete freedom of movement is a bad thing IMHO - every state needs to know who is there and the "why & when" if only to plan basics such as housing and healthcare. The import of cheap labour is also unravelling pretty quickly which was driven by FOM.

There is more but I have several boxes to tick for some regulatory approval.............. TTFN

Surely you haven’t had a box to tick since 1st February 2020? Otherwise who’s reading them?

Do you have an example of a regulatory burden stemming from the EU forced onto the NHS?

Also Regulatory culture is part of living in the 21st century. It’s increased everywhere around the World over the last 30 years. Just because we were in the EU whist it happened, doesn’t make it something that’s unique to the EU. A regulatory culture would still have grown in this country regardless, as it has everywhere else.

 

[MalaysiaYellow]

Going to use Belgium as an example here.

Its currently impossible for anyone without an id card to do the following.

Rent a house
Have access to medical
Open a bank account
Get issued a driving license
Claim benefits
Etc.

Stop and search would also do its bit if people failed
to show an id card on request.

The sad fact is that people were all to eager to blame the EU rather than
ask themselves if their own government could have perhaps done more.

Same here in Malaysia, you generally have to have your ID card or Passport with you at all time and show on request. Same in Singapore and Hong Kong.

Maybe not here in Malaysia, but Singapore and HK have a lot of controls and procedures but they are very well organised and efficient.

 

[Essexyellows]

Going to use Belgium as an example here.

Its currently impossible for anyone without an id card to do the following.

Rent a house
Have access to medical
Open a bank account
Get issued a driving license
Claim benefits
Etc.

Stop and search would also do its bit if people failed
to show an id card on request.

The sad fact is that people were all to eager to blame the EU rather than
ask themselves if their own government could have perhaps done more.

Had we implemented such things, during Governments of many colours, we might not have voted to leave.

We didn`t and there in is the issue.

 

[Oslernorth]

Had we implemented such things, during Governments of many colours, we might not have voted to leave.

We didn`t and there in is the issue.

Where’s the logic in that?
Should we Campaign to leave NATO because Government won’t change the national speed limit?

 

[Essexyellows]

Surely you haven’t had a box to tick since 1st February 2020? Otherwise who’s reading them?

Do you have an example of a regulatory burden stemming from the EU forced onto the NHS?

Also Regulatory culture is part of living in the 21st century. It’s increased everywhere around the World over the last 30 years. Just because we were in the EU whist it happened, doesn’t make it something that’s unique to the EU. A regulatory culture would still have grown in this country regardless, as it has everywhere else.

IIRC there are circa 60,000+ EU regulations that impact on many things in many ways so take your pick.

Regulation is what has dissolved "common sense" - the classic "well there wasn`t a sign so I did something stupid anyway".

I still have plenty of boxes to tick as we absorbed everything onto statute prior to them being reviewed at "some time in the future" hopefully after I retire.

Equally interesting to note is that at times of crisis, such as a global pandemic, the rule books, and paperwork can be easily launched out of the proverbial window.

 

[DevilsAvocado]

Had we implemented such things, during Governments of many colours, we might not have voted to leave.

We didn`t and there in is the issue.

Yep agreed, we could have done it but chose not to. Our fault, not the EU`s.

I guess that means you agree that taking back control was a load of bollox ?

 

[Essexyellows]

Where’s the logic in that?
Should we Campaign to leave NATO because Government won’t change the national speed limit?

The logic is that the UK always seems to neglect its ability to make its own choices and "blame" someone else.
If the excuse is removed then the Government becomes more accountable.

EG: If Belgium can introduce the legislation listed why didn`t we?

 

[Essexyellows]

Yep agreed, we could have done it but chose not to. Our fault, not the EU`s.

I guess that means you agree that taking back control was a load of bollox ?

Nope, the vote has removed an excuse for HMG, whatever the colour. It makes them more accountable to the electorate.