Brexit Party Rally

[Thomas/Brock/Jones]

Unless I'm missing some nuance or other this seems to be an astoundingly crass comment!

Antifa operates as a counter to growing right wing activity. Arguably, you could say extremist right wing activity, although definitions of 'extremist' will vary. My views are entirely in line with that aim, but I do not agree with their paramilitary style tactics, which are reminiscent of the baying mobs of the EDL and Tommy Robinson. To claim the two are inextricable is simply wrong.

The real thought process should be why. Why is the centre right gaining ...due to in no small way immigration whether we like it or not and the threat real and perceived of an Islamic culture that does not always fit in with the existing one very smoothly .
Trying to solve those issues is the root cause and showing that there are plans in place rather that segmentation of society as is happening.

 

[Thomas/Brock/Jones]

Let's have your own, personal view then. Why do people fear immigration? Why do people perceive Islam as a threat?

This country has always accepted immigrants for economic reasons, although they've not always been treated well. Chances are you're from immigrant stock yourself. Net immigration peaked in 2015. In 2018 it was down to 258,000. What are people frightened of? No doubt some will claim immigrants threaten their jobs (unproven and unlikely given the types of jobs most immigrants fall into). I would suggest many just fear people who are different to them, and are looking for someone to scapegoat because of the limits of their own lives.

As for Islam, two thirds of the 160,000 Tory membership apparently believe there are parts of the country under Sharia Law that are no go areas for non-Muslims. Errant nonsense. There are no such areas.

My own conclusion is some people will always exhibit unfounded, unjustified fears of others who are different to them. In the more extreme cases, this fear turns into xenophobic hatred and bigotry. Add to that, many people simply lack education about the benefits of immigrants entering the UK and the essential need for such a workforce.

But they are my opinions. What are yours?

Why , I would say that the muslim rape cells in many towns and cities didnt help, the fact that , say , compared to Indian non muslims , Chinese, Polish, Caribbean the 2nd, 3rd even 4th generation stick to their own , going back to Pakistan to marry and bring over non educated women or men who struggle for decent work, the obvious atrocities carried out under their banner across Europe and beyond, the not being able to marry non believers without fear of being disowned, honour killings and the experiences that I have had growing up in a mixed school/ society .

 

[Foley]

Let's have your own, personal view then. Why do people fear immigration? Why do people perceive Islam as a threat?

This country has always accepted immigrants for economic reasons, although they've not always been treated well. Chances are you're from immigrant stock yourself. Net immigration peaked in 2015. In 2018 it was down to 258,000. What are people frightened of? No doubt some will claim immigrants threaten their jobs (unproven and unlikely given the types of jobs most immigrants fall into). I would suggest many just fear people who are different to them, and are looking for someone to scapegoat because of the limits of their own lives.

As for Islam, two thirds of the 160,000 Tory membership apparently believe there are parts of the country under Sharia Law that are no go areas for non-Muslims. Errant nonsense. There are no such areas.

My own conclusion is some people will always exhibit unfounded, unjustified fears of others who are different to them. In the more extreme cases, this fear turns into xenophobic hatred and bigotry. Add to that, many people simply lack education about the benefits of immigrants entering the UK and the essential need for such a workforce.

But they are my opinions. What are yours?

A slight tangent, but with regard to the EU, people had an issue with the large immigration from mainly eastern countries within the EU.
I have spoken to a number of people particularly in the North of the country who have complained particularly of the number of people who have come into the UK in a relatively short period.
If the immigration is not controlled then this can of course put pressure on schools, doctors, housing.
I know that politicians at Westminster didnt seem to get it, but one of the undoubted reasons why people voted 'leave' was due to some of these pressures.

 

[Thomas/Brock/Jones]

So your opinion of immigrants is entirely negative, especially the Muslim ones?

Not at all , I welcome all nations and peoples . I do think that the hard line and seemingly extremely draconian rules that Islam operates under coupled with the islamic terrorists around Europe and the world is where the issues come from. We all need to address them and I hope move forward with a more progressive Islam .

 

[Thomas/Brock/Jones]

The laws under which Muslims choose to live is surely up to them. Don't forget, everyone living in this country is subject to the law of the land irrespective of any additional religious considerations.

As for Islamic terrorists, they are criminals and very, very few in number. They are being 'addressed' by our security forces.

Islam as a religion isn't going to change because you and other non-Muslims don't approve of some of its aspects. You may search for a 'more progressive Islam' but Muslims themselves seem quite happy with their 1,400 year old version.

So, you welcome all nations and peoples do you? Try reading your earlier post again. Perhaps you've forgotten what you a wrote?

I think we should all live under the laws of the land first and I'm suprised that you think honour killings , discrimination against homosexuals and women as ok as long as its religious.
There have never been so many awful, murderous attacks carried out in the name of any other religion than there has been in Europe and indeed the wider world.Even if small in number suprisingly successful across continents.
Shia, sunnis fight and murder each other , persecute non muslims and yes progressive Islam like Attaturk formed in Turkey and was evident in many middle eastern countries in the not too distant past . Now you are saying that being forced to accept religion and not having freedom is ok .

 

[Marked Ox]

Not at all , I welcome all nations and peoples . I do think that the hard line and seemingly extremely draconian rules that Islam operates under coupled with the islamic terrorists around Europe and the world is where the issues come from. We all need to address them and I hope move forward with a more progressive Islam .

I assume we also need to address the Catholics and Protestant Christians then as they still have terrorists as well.

Also, you talk about Islam as one group, it isn't, just as Christianity isn't. Here is a link that explains the various groups:

Islamic schools and branches - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

 

[Thomas/Brock/Jones]

I assume we also need to address the Catholics and Protestant Christians then as they still have terrorists as well.

Also, you talk about Islam as one group, it isn't, just as Christianity isn't. Here is a link that explains the various groups:

Islamic schools and branches - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

I dont , I mentioned sunni and shia's the main two groups let alone the numerous put upon sects ...I find it sad that the extreme Islamists are gaining ground .

 

[Thomas/Brock/Jones]

Only two made up things - or 'lies' if you like - in that response. I haven't said honour killings etc are OK as long as it's religious. Neither have I said that being forced to accept religion and not having freedom is OK.

Your grasp of history isn't up to much. The Christian faith dominated, enslaved and annihilated entire civilisations in its thirst to baptise 'heathens', conquer continents and loot treasures. Islamic sects fight amongst themselves, as Catholics and Protestants have in our own history.

Why don't you just admit you have a dislike of Muslims based on nothing but your own pathological desire to hate people who are different?

Absolute rubbish . I have given you reasons why there is a gain in right wing nationalism now , why people are concerned about the shocking atrocities that have happened in this country now. I haven't mentioned the Catholic/Protestant issue as it largely does not threaten or actually kill people indiscriminately . Manchester bombing of children . I was in London when the tube/bus suicide bombings occurred . Shocking and yet there are people born here who go and fight for islamic state...that is worrying

 

[Thomas/Brock/Jones]

The Catholic/Protestant issue was raised as an historical comparison .... do you know what? It's rare that I feel debate is pointless, but on this occasion I do. You invent comments that weren't made and you singularly fail to follow any logical path. Shan't be bothering with you on this thread any more. Have fun hating Muslims.

We have perhaps dragged on but I , unlike you , don't hate people but I do dislike authoritarian or doctrine which is violent being imposed on people .

 

[Gary Baldi]

Rubbish. And you've brought the Nazis up again!

'Align with the mentality'? The mentality of the Nazis was fascism, racism and genocide! I didn't say I 'supported' anyone (in fact I specifically rejected that word). I might like the aims (for example) of the RSPCA - and do - but I am not at all convinced by the organisation itself and some of the methods they use. I might like the aims of the Labour Party - and some of them I do - but as an organisation I do NOT support them for other reasons. You can actually say the same about the Tory party. I support the work done by Oxfam whole-heartedly - but am dismayed by what some of their employees have done.

I reiterate - it is quite possible to agree with the aims of an organisation (and again I did NOT ever mention Antifa) without endorsing or supporting that organisation. For many reasons.

I don’t think that’s a particularly defensible position. If someone in Texas agrees with the state that murder a bad thing, it doesn’t mean they support capital punishment any more than someone in Oxford. If someone agrees with the prolife movement it doesnt mean they agree with shooting doctors. Quakers agreed with the British government that the nazis were terrible, but didn’t agree with bombing Germany. There are huge numbers of causes where there are groups who share common aims but have a massive spectrum of approaches to addressing them on which they will fundamentally disagree.

Your example is a particularly poor one. There is no reason why someone couldn’t hold a thoroughly racist position without supporting genocide. Your argument fails on the characterisation “I support the nazis but”. No one said “I support antifa but” they said they agreed with their aims but not their actions. That’s different.

I cannot disagree more. If you support Antifa or their aims - and that particularly organisations desire to remove fascists/fascism from the world, you align with the outputs of that organisation and the organisations they associate with. You cannot sit back and say oh well, they did something bad, but I support them anyway because the cause is a good one.

So when Antifa beat up a gay Vietnamese-American journalist so badly that he has a brain bleed because they think he's a fascist (or wishing to suppress free reporting of their actions aka fascistic actions), by supporting Antifa, you are supporting the action and the methodology. It is easy to walk this one back and condemn them for what they are. Thugs.

It's not different with the Nazi stuff - but I bring it up because because that is what is done nowadays and their aim is a political ethos akin to the Nazis? I did say it was an extreme example!!!

 

[Gary Baldi]

A slight tangent, but with regard to the EU, people had an issue with the large immigration from mainly eastern countries within the EU.
I have spoken to a number of people particularly in the North of the country who have complained particularly of the number of people who have come into the UK in a relatively short period.
If the immigration is not controlled then this can of course put pressure on schools, doctors, housing.
I know that politicians at Westminster didnt seem to get it, but one of the undoubted reasons why people voted 'leave' was due to some of these pressures.

In itself, it's sad that some people felt vote leaving was their only way to express the disapproval about immigration from the EU. It shows where politically our system broke without most of us ever realising.

 

[ZeroTheHero]

I cannot disagree more. If you support Antifa or their aims - and that particularly organisations desire to remove fascists/fascism from the world, you align with the outputs of that organisation and the organisations they associate with. You cannot sit back and say oh well, they did something bad, but I support them anyway because the cause is a good one.

So when Antifa beat up a gay Vietnamese-American journalist so badly that he has a brain bleed because they think he's a fascist (or wishing to suppress free reporting of their actions aka fascistic actions), by supporting Antifa, you are supporting the action and the methodology. It is easy to walk this one back and condemn them for what they are. Thugs.

It's not different with the Nazi stuff - but I bring it up because because that is what is done nowadays and their aim is a political ethos akin to the Nazis? I did say it was an extreme example!!!

TBH you have just repeated what you said last time in different words. I didn't agree with your logic then and I don't now - actually that's not true, I can see no logic in your position on this. But there's no point in repeating my reply again, so I won't just duplicate it.
Just a thought though - if you support Oxford United, you share the aims of all of us and of the club. Some people who support the club use flares, invade pitches and like a good scrap. Presumably by your logic, you are 'aligned' with them and agree with what they do because you share their aims? And presumably if the club ever do ANYTHING you disagree with you would no longer have those aims, even if you didn't support the management? Because if you would still be a supporter (and I know you would!) then your position is inconsistent and illogical because you would have the same aims as the management but not agree with how they were trying to achieve them. Having the same aims/goals as anyone does NOT mean you automatically support everything they do - that's just silly!

 

[chuckbert]

I cannot disagree more. If you support Antifa or their aims - and that particularly organisations desire to remove fascists/fascism from the world, you align with the outputs of that organisation and the organisations they associate with. You cannot sit back and say oh well, they did something bad, but I support them anyway because the cause is a good one.

So when Antifa beat up a gay Vietnamese-American journalist so badly that he has a brain bleed because they think he's a fascist (or wishing to suppress free reporting of their actions aka fascistic actions), by supporting Antifa, you are supporting the action and the methodology. It is easy to walk this one back and condemn them for what they are. Thugs.

It's not different with the Nazi stuff - but I bring it up because because that is what is done nowadays and their aim is a political ethos akin to the Nazis? I did say it was an extreme example!!!

Your argument is flawed by being a non sequitur. People have explicitly said they do not support antifa, but that they agree with the desire to remove fascism. You keep saying “if you support antifa”, “by supporting antifa” etc which is not what they said (or even the opposite of what they said). Your logic is consistent only with a position that no one here has taken. I’m not sure why you’re repeating this point.

As a final attempt at a counter example to your argument , someone who thinks that animals should not be used in medical experiments is not necessarily supportive or responsible in any way for the car bombing of a scientist or the destruction of a cat farm. Someone who actually expresses support for militant animal rights groups is.

If you don’t agree with that we’ll have to agree to disagree.

 

[Gary Baldi]

Aaah, no, it was a case of I support what Antifa says, but I might not agree with their actions. A different nuance entirely. They are a specific political group with questionable methods and desire for intimidation and violence - not on a one off issue. It's not comparable to OUFC at all, a really poor example to use. You do know who Antifa really are?????

As a high level concept, removing fascism or communism is a good thing to want for all. Aligning with an organisation such as Antifa means you agree with their methods or need to get educated fast. Likewise, aligning with a group who want to remove fascism in peaceful and respectful ways, is ok and virtuous.

Do you both think an assaulting a journalist is acceptable? Do you think putting people in hospital is acceptable? That is Antifa, in a nut shell.

 

[ZeroTheHero]

Who has said they support Antifa? Or they they are 'aligned' with it? You keep on about it, but nobody has!

Of course assaulting people and putting them in hospital isn't OK - and (again) absolutely no one has said it is.

I don't know why you find it so difficult to admit that you can agree with the aims of an organisation without condoning the methods they use to achieve them - but you obviously can't see what seems to other posters on the thread to be blindingly obvious. I don't think it's worth pursuing this any longer - we are going around in circles. You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink - so I'm out and I too will just agree to disagree with you on this.

 

[Marked Ox]

Ann Widdecombe's EU slavery remarks branded as 'disgusting'

The Brexit Party MEP compared leaving the EU to "slaves" rising up "against their owners".

www.bbc.co.uk

My take from this is that Ann Widdecombe and the Brexit Party are rather crap at historical perspectives, metaphors and comparison based on her comments and the Brexit Party spokesperson's comments at the end of the news report.

 

[Peterdev]

I thought the comparison was quite a reasonable way of comparing. Her implication is that we are like slaves caught up in an intransigent Union.
Colourful language getting the point across.

 

[Marked Ox]

I thought the comparison was quite a reasonable way of comparing. Her implication is that we are like slaves caught up in an intransigent Union.
Colourful language getting the point across.

Oh, come on.

It is on a par with Johnson's camp and his supporters comparing him favourably with Churchill which he isn't unless it is on the level of being a racist.

 

[Peterdev]

The argument being made is that the EU are behaving in a dictatorial way. Anything that is said these days as an argument always has the suggestion of racist overtones. I think the reaction to her speaking is an over reaction to those who don’t like her argument.
As for the Brexit MEPs turning their backs on the EU parliament...fair play.
No different to those Liberals turning up with Bollox to Brexit on their yellow T shirts

 

[chuckbert]

I thought the comparison was quite a reasonable way of comparing. Her implication is that we are like slaves caught up in an intransigent Union.
Colourful language getting the point across.

Jeezus are you kidding? It’s like comparing the enforced switch to metric measures with the holocaust. It’s not colourful language, it is self-pitying pandering. As time goes on brexit were are seriously revealing themselves as “first-world-problems” snowflakes.