International News Immigration

[Essexyellows]

Please refer to Page1.



BBC News this AM featuring more dinghies leaving France while some sort of Coastal Protection Vessel sat off shore watching them.

Fully expect the later news to show either a scene of horror as some drown or same dinghies arriving in Kent.

Follow the proper, legitimate, legal routes unless you have something to hide.

Yep, that`s how it panned out.

And I`m sure those law abiding young men took little notice of "women and children first" when things went wrong.

 

[m]

The point here is without drug users, drug gang's wouldn't have the space to exist. It's simple supply and demand - the supply exists because the demand exists.

Well yeah, but the reverse is equally true. The demand only exists because the supply exists or existed in the first place.

I'm not going to get further drawn into this avenue of pointlessness, but I don't think you can sensibly separate the two. And in the real world you'd obviously try to tackle both.

 

[Sheik djibouti]

Yep, that`s how it panned out.

And I`m sure those law abiding young men took little notice of "women and children first" when things went wrong.

So, do you think Rwanda will solve the problem?

Leaving aside the immense tragedy of desperate human beings losing their lives that is.

 

[ZeroTheHero]

The top 3 detected nationalities arriving in the UK on boats between March 2018 and March 2023 were Iranian (20.7%) Albanian (14.9%) and Iraqi (14.7%). The majority of those arriving in small boats are men (male, 18 or over, excluding those of unknown age or sex) – 76%

Iran - No war (unless you count Israel as a 'war', which seems silly), no flood, no famine
Albania - No war, no flood, no famine
Iraq - No war, no flood, no famine

Those 3 nations accounted for over half of all arrivals during that period. They aren't fleeing war, or famine, or the effects of climate change.

The truth is most of them are economic migrants who have chosen to not do things the right way. Remove the economic incentive from arriving on boats and you'll stop most of them.

Errm, I did mention economic factors as well in my original post! You may not think that economic migrants should try to get here, but they seem to feel differently! Since your way of stopping these people was to solve the problem by stopping the causes of migration, then it follows that you would also have to improve the economic conditions in Iran, Iraq and Albania. How exactly are you going to do that? Or are you going to refuse to house or feed such people when they arrive? You'll just end up with streets full of rough sleepers. Oh, but then that is a 'lifestyle choice' isn't it...

If these economic migrants can be returned whence they came, then that's how to deal with them (cheaper than flying them to Rwanda) and if we have 'detected' their nationality and they have no other reason for migrating, then we can do that. Of course there is such a huge processing backlog (Tories again) that this happens very very slowly indeed.

 

[QR]

The top 3 detected nationalities arriving in the UK on boats between March 2018 and March 2023 were Iranian (20.7%) Albanian (14.9%) and Iraqi (14.7%). The majority of those arriving in small boats are men (male, 18 or over, excluding those of unknown age or sex) – 76%

Iran - No war (unless you count Israel as a 'war', which seems silly), no flood, no famine
Albania - No war, no flood, no famine
Iraq - No war, no flood, no famine

Those 3 nations accounted for over half of all arrivals during that period. They aren't fleeing war, or famine, or the effects of climate change.

The truth is most of them are economic migrants who have chosen to not do things the right way. Remove the economic incentive from arriving on boats and you'll stop most of them.

So if the government would actual process their applications they would be sent back! See where the problem lay?

 

[MustardYellow]

Well yeah, but the reverse is equally true. The demand only exists because the supply exists or existed in the first place.

I'm not going to get further drawn into this avenue of pointlessness, but I don't think you can sensibly separate the two. And in the real world you'd obviously try to tackle both.

You're never going to eradicate either. There will always be people who want to buy drugs and there will always be people who want to be smuggled, and therefore there will always be people offering those services. My point was in response to the idea that just arresting smugglers will solve the problem - it won't. Of course arrest the smugglers if you can, but it won't do anything to curb the supply of the service.

 

[Marston Road yellow]

The top 3 detected nationalities arriving in the UK on boats between March 2018 and March 2023 were Iranian (20.7%) Albanian (14.9%) and Iraqi (14.7%). The majority of those arriving in small boats are men (male, 18 or over, excluding those of unknown age or sex) – 76%

Iran - No war (unless you count Israel as a 'war', which seems silly), no flood, no famine
Albania - No war, no flood, no famine
Iraq - No war, no flood, no famine

Those 3 nations accounted for over half of all arrivals during that period. They aren't fleeing war, or famine, or the effects of climate change.

The truth is most of them are economic migrants who have chosen to not do things the right way. Remove the economic incentive from arriving on boats and you'll stop most of them.

Iran is a Muslim revolutionary state where people’s rights are absolutely crushed.
The recent uprising (that they crushed) was because a woman who wasn’t wearing her headscarf correctly, was arrested and killed by the police.
Notice she was wearing it, just too high……

Iraq is a basket case at the moment well worth looking into how we messed it up after we went in smashed it up.

Albanian men are generally economic migrants and looking for building work, because they have high unemployment and we have a housing shortage and a booming building industry that’s woefully short of staff…….

Yes there are gangs and really unpleasant people coming across too because they see an opportunity.

We need builders, but rather than consider ways to use that labour we keep them at arms length and force them underground and outside of the economy.

Sending the strongest members of the family that have the best hope of getting a job is generally why the boats are full of young men.

 

[MustardYellow]

Errm, I did mention economic factors as well in my original post! You may not think that economic migrants should try to get here, but they seem to feel differently! Since your way of stopping these people was to solve the problem by stopping the causes of migration, then it follows that you would also have to improve the economic conditions in Iran, Iraq and Albania. How exactly are you going to do that? Or are you going to refuse to house or feed such people when they arrive? You'll just end up with streets full of rough sleepers. Oh, but then that is a 'lifestyle choice' isn't it...

If these economic migrants can be returned whence they came, then that's how to deal with them (cheaper than flying them to Rwanda) and if we have 'detected' their nationality and they have no other reason for migrating, then we can do that. Of course there is such a huge processing backlog (Tories again) that this happens very very slowly indeed.

That isn't my solution. Any economic issues in those countries are the responsibility of their governments, not ours. My solution is to make the UK a very unattractive place to attempt to enter illegally. Make arriving here on a boat a highly unappealing prospect. Make it clear that there is nothing good here for those who choose to arrive this way.

Of course the ideal situation as you say in the second paragraph is to send them back, but too many arrive with little or no documentation. Imagine the legal challenges in cases where we can't prove where they come from?

The system is broken and while the government have made a mistake with the Rwanda bill, the only way to solve the problem is to be tough.

 

[ZeroTheHero]

OK - so how? How do you make it a very unattractive place to migrants?

Would you do that for all of them or just those judged to be 'economic' migrants? What about those who are genuinely fleeing in fear of their lives?

 

[MustardYellow]

Iran is a Muslim revolutionary state where people’s rights are absolutely crushed.
The recent uprising (that they crushed) was because a woman who wasn’t wearing her headscarf correctly, was arrested and killed by the police.
Notice she was wearing it, just too high……

Iraq is a basket case at the moment well worth looking into how we messed it up after we went in smashed it up.

Albanian men are generally economic migrants and looking for building work, because they have high unemployment and we have a housing shortage and a booming building industry that’s woefully short of staff…….

Yes there are gangs and really unpleasant people coming across too because they see an opportunity.

We need builders, but rather than consider ways to use that labour we keep them at arms length and force them underground and outside of the economy.

Sending the strongest members of the family that have the best hope of getting a job is generally why the boats are full of young men.

I'm not denying these places may not be the greatest to live, but the constant lines thrown at us about them 'fleeing war' and 'famine' etc is largely nonsense. Living in not the greatest place is not a reasonable reason to land boats in other countries.

Albanians can apply for visa's to visit, study and work in the UK. There is absolutely no reason why they would need to get here on a dinghy, unless of course there's a legal reason why their work visa may be denied...

 

[Sheik djibouti]

You're never going to eradicate either. There will always be people who want to buy drugs and there will always be people who want to be smuggled, and therefore there will always be people offering those services. My point was in response to the idea that just arresting smugglers will solve the problem - it won't. Of course arrest the smugglers if you can, but it won't do anything to curb the supply of the service.

Just taking it back to your drug gangs analogy. When you target those, you don't simply target those pushing it on the streets to junkies/soon to be junkies. You target the whole infrastructure from top to bottom. Low life scrotes on the streets selling little bags, and the people one up the food chain who supply them are of little value in the grand scheme of things, same as the blokes shepherding desperate people onto boats or bundling them into vans.

And I am sorry, but you will never stop people from wanting to come here, because we're currently the 7th richest country on the planet and you can't hide or change the fact that this is an attractive prospect for desperate people, despite the best efforts of our current government to make it less attractive.

It is an incredibly complicated and tangled web of issues that all need to be tackled as a whole. Turning a blind eye to why it's happening and simply thinking in terms of "end of pipe" solutions and "being tough" is simply not going to work. Desperate people will always go to desperate lengths, until you find a way to make them less desperate.

Anyway, I have a feeling that much of the current debate on migrant numbers and solutions to reduce them is going to look pretty insignificant in a few years time when climate refugees are looking for somewhere habitable to live on the planet.

 

[QR]

I'm not denying these places may not be the greatest to live, but the constant lines thrown at us about them 'fleeing war' and 'famine' etc is largely nonsense. Living in not the greatest place is not a reasonable reason to land boats in other countries.

I think we can safely conclude you don't have a fkg clue what you're talking about.

 

[Marston Road yellow]

I'm not denying these places may not be the greatest to live, but the constant lines thrown at us about them 'fleeing war' and 'famine' etc is largely nonsense. Living in not the greatest place is not a reasonable reason to land boats in other countries.

Albanians can apply for visa's to visit, study and work in the UK. There is absolutely no reason why they would need to get here on a dinghy, unless of course there's a legal reason why their work visa may be denied...

Fleeing war and famine aren’t automatic reasons to claim asylum. I don’t think starving to death is considered a reason to claim asylum ( shame on us)

Asylum is about oppression. Be that race, religion, gender, sexuality or political view.

 

[Essexyellows]

So, do you think Rwanda will solve the problem?

Leaving aside the immense tragedy of desperate human beings losing their lives that is.

In isolation absolutely not.

We need to crack the gangs, make it very undesirable to try and channel people through legal routes - all of which are a better way of spending money than focusing lots of resource/£££`s on Rwanda.

Hopefully we can reach agreement with other countries, as we have with Albania, and then return people to a safe country.

If you know the chances of getting bounced back are getting far higher then the supply chain will weaken.

Maybe yourself why the UK is seen as so appealing ............. and then look at how the French are hardening their stance on undocumented migrants. 5 years residence before you get any benefits, only emergency healthcare, a harder approach to family reunification, no automatic work visa etc etc.

That`s the route to follow for those arriving illegally.

 

[Marston Road yellow]

In isolation absolutely not.

We need to crack the gangs, make it very undesirable to try and channel people through legal routes - all of which are a better way of spending money than focusing lots of resource/£££`s on Rwanda.

Hopefully we can reach agreement with other countries, as we have with Albania, and then return people to a safe country.

If you know the chances of getting bounced back are getting far higher then the supply chain will weaken.

Maybe yourself why the UK is seen as so appealing ............. and then look at how the French are hardening their stance on undocumented migrants. 5 years residence before you get any benefits, only emergency healthcare, a harder approach to family reunification, no automatic work visa etc etc.

That`s the route to follow for those arriving illegally.

Let’s say we do that how would anyone arriving support themselves?

If you stop benefits and stop people working then you force them into a black market job or criminality as they would literally have no choice.

 

[QR]

Let’s say we do that how would anyone arriving support themselves?

If you stop benefits and stop people working then you force them into a black market job or criminality as they would literally have no choice.

He probably expects them to just put up with starvation (it's character building see) like see.... those who can't work due to a disability...or a mental health issue... or being a full-time unpaid carer. You get the drift.

 

[Whingit]

If we just let the French do what they want to do, kindly pay for and build us a processing facility in Calais, things would be so much better. Unfortunately the government need and want the boats coming because it's something to shout at and distract people with, and Sunak wants 10-15 people being deported to Rwanda to be the backdrop for the election because people are stupid enough to believe it's going to make a difference to anything.

 

[MustardYellow]

Just taking it back to your drug gangs analogy. When you target those, you don't simply target those pushing it on the streets to junkies/soon to be junkies. You target the whole infrastructure from top to bottom. Low life scrotes on the streets selling little bags, and the people one up the food chain who supply them are of little value in the grand scheme of things, same as the blokes shepherding desperate people onto boats or bundling them into vans.

And I am sorry, but you will never stop people from wanting to come here, because we're currently the 7th richest country on the planet and you can't hide or change the fact that this is an attractive prospect for desperate people, despite the best efforts of our current government to make it less attractive.

It is an incredibly complicated and tangled web of issues that all need to be tackled as a whole. Turning a blind eye to why it's happening and simply thinking in terms of "end of pipe" solutions and "being tough" is simply not going to work. Desperate people will always go to desperate lengths, until you find a way to make them less desperate.

Anyway, I have a feeling that much of the current debate on migrant numbers and solutions to reduce them is going to look pretty insignificant in a few years time when climate refugees are looking for somewhere habitable to live on the planet.

Even targeting the big boys in drug gangs doesn't stop drugs gangs. That isn't how they work. When I worked with ex prisoners one described this exact scenario to me in these terms during a discussion about preventing gang crime. He said if a manager at a 'normal' workplace was to die, be arrested etc what would happen? You'd usually have numerous people vying for the job, one would eventually get it, and before you knew it normal service is resumed. This is exactly the same in gangs, except the 'vying' is usually intimidation and/or violence. Essentially, there is *always* a replacement.

Why do people want to come here? Because of the benefits & perks being here brings. Continue those benefits & perks for those who come here legally, stop them for those who don't.

 

[Sheik djibouti]

If we just let the French do what they want to do, kindly pay for and build us a processing facility in Calais, things would be so much better. Unfortunately the government need and want the boats coming because it's something to shout at and distract people with, and Sunak wants 10-15 people being deported to Rwanda to be the backdrop for the election because people are stupid enough to believe it's going to make a difference to anything.

That's £30 million quid down the swanny then.

I appreciate that it is small change to the likes of Sunak, but I bet you could build a processing facility in Calais for around the cost of 15 Rwanda removals. It'd be quick too, given the swarms of Albanian builders milling around the Calais jungle waiting to invade our shores

 

[MustardYellow]

Fleeing war and famine aren’t automatic reasons to claim asylum. I don’t think starving to death is considered a reason to claim asylum ( shame on us)

Asylum is about oppression. Be that race, religion, gender, sexuality or political view.

And how much of that can be proven on an individual basis? And how do you determine what 'oppression' is serious enough to warrant a claim of asylum?

Is the expectation that when someone says they've been 'oppressed' we just believe them?