National News Shamima Begum

[Yellowmania]

It's also seems that you are happy for a terrorist to get off Scott free! She should have the full force of the law.

Err where exactly have I said I’m happy for a terrorist to get off Scot free??
I’ve laid out a couple of points about some of the costs involved, and given a pragmatic view, so please don’t say I’m happy about either alternative.
I’ll happily kick the trap door on any convicted terrorist.

 

[Marston Road yellow]

A young British born girl is conned into travelling abroad to be sexually exploited ( she was a child when she travelled) and married off at 15. As she was a minor I don’t believe that in itself was a criminal act. ( glad to be proven wrong)

The reason I believe that she hasn’t been brought back is because I think the government don’t actually have a case against her.

The concern I have is this.

I am British, I was born here and other than travelling I have only ever lived here. She was the same. What is stopping the next Secretary of State from making a decision based on their criteria to make me stateless.

For the civil liberties of all of us she MUST be brought back to the UK and tried in court.

 

[bashamwonderland]

It's also seems that you are happy for a terrorist to get off Scott free! She should have the full force of the law.

Hmmmm, Syrian desert prison camp or UK female prison with all the trappings, heating and comfort that comes with it.

Which are you choosing? There's a reason she's trying to get back here.

Justice is being served.

 

[Oslernorth]

Hmmmm, Syrian desert prison camp or UK female prison with all the trappings, heating and comfort that comes with it.

Which are you choosing? There's a reason she's trying to get back here.

Justice is being served.

This idea that prison is some sort of holiday camp is absurd. I wouldn’t want to be in one. I suspect in your heart of hearts, you wouldn’t want to be in one either. It would be hell.
What exactly are the trappings? A meal? One hour in every 24 to exercise?

 

[Marston Road yellow]

Hmmmm, Syrian desert prison camp or UK female prison with all the trappings, heating and comfort that comes with it.

Which are you choosing? There's a reason she's trying to get back here.

Justice is being served.

What justice??? She hasn’t had a trial.

We fought precisely so that people could have a fair trial and not be subject to kangaroo courts and a warped shariah systems and then when we win we leave people to rot in a desert. Yes she is being punished but we don’t quite know what she is specifically being punished for.

At the moment all we know is that as a child she was groomed into joining a cause and then sexuality exploited. If that had been written about a pretty white girl I’m sure you’d be in uproar.

She can’t have a trial because she hasn’t been brought home.

 

[Essexyellows]

The majority of her crimes were committed in Syria and its environs.

Therefore it is only right she is left there to face their justice in due course.

That might take a very long time.

If she gains the right to return to the UK we will be looking at only the process that might have radicalised/groomed her and got her to Syria to commit those crimes.

Proper chicken & egg stuff so let the Syrians deal with her first as those crimes are probably far more serious than anything committed in the UK.

Sorted.

 

[Marston Road yellow]

The majority of her crimes were committed in Syria and its environs.

Therefore it is only right she is left there to face their justice in due course.

That might take a very long time.

If she gains the right to return to the UK we will be looking at only the process that might have radicalised/groomed her and got her to Syria to commit those crimes.

Proper chicken & egg stuff so let the Syrians deal with her first as those crimes are probably far more serious than anything committed in the UK.

Sorted.

Serious question, what crimes did she commit in Syria? What has she been charged with?

I don’t think she has been charged with anything and the only reason that she is in the camp is because she has nowhere else she can go.

I’m all for charging someone for crimes they have committed and making sure that they face the full force of the law.

Our actions in this regard do not match the rhetoric of a free and fair government.

 

[Mojofilter]

It's just all desperately sad. I wish it as an issue would stop being dredged up by the papers. The way the story gets told is just so gutless, it's not about getting to the truth of the matter or about a quite deep interrogation of our morals; it's just "BAD ISIS LADY CAN GET FUCKED" or similar.

It feels all humanity leaves this debate, I hope this decision draws a line under it as a political football at least.

 

[Marston Road yellow]

It's just all desperately sad. I wish it as an issue would stop being dredged up by the papers. The way the story gets told is just so gutless, it's not about getting to the truth of the matter or about a quite deep interrogation of our morals; it's just "BAD ISIS LADY CAN GET FUCKED" or similar.

It feels all humanity leaves this debate, I hope this decision draws a line under it as a political football at least.

Agreed that the debate has become gutter but the only way a line can be drawn is when we give her the same rights we should afford to anyone else born in the UK.

 

[Mojofilter]

Agreed that the debate has become gutter but the only way a line can be drawn is when we give her the same rights we should afford to anyone else born in the UK.

Why would that be the only way to draw a line under it? I think I'm probably more sympathetic to your argument than I am to the other, but there's something very typical of this debate and other culture war touchstones in your statement which is roughly "The only correct way to move on from this is if we do the thing I think we should do"

It's complex and ugly and I shouldn't think there's ever a satisfactory answer. My preference is to move on from it and reflect on the darkness of our decision making when enough time has passed to think about it in a useful way. Right now it's just tantrums left right and centre

 

[Essexyellows]

Serious question, what crimes did she commit in Syria? What has she been charged with?

I don’t think she has been charged with anything and the only reason that she is in the camp is because she has nowhere else she can go.

I’m all for charging someone for crimes they have committed and making sure that they face the full force of the law.

Our actions in this regard do not match the rhetoric of a free and fair government.

Tricky one to answer concisely as Ms Begum has made a number of choices during the legal process.
Some of those were also "not in her favour" as revealed in yesterdays judgement.

https://www.judiciary.uk/wp-content/uploads/2023/02/Shamima-Begum-OPEN-Judgment.pdf

"The Commission having decided she should not be permitted to advance certain grounds with others being stayed, concluded that Ms Begum’s options were twofold: either to accept that the entirety of her appeal should be stayed until her circumstances changed and instructions could be given; or, alternatively, instruct her legal team to advance her appeal without those instructions. She chose the latter course."

As for "what she did" that is in the closed aspect of the case.

"There is a limit as to what may be said in OPEN about what happened to Ms Begum in Syria. On the basis of what is in the public domain, any fair-minded person would have to agree that Hayden J’s generic predictions as to what could well happen to those exploited in this way have been amply borne out in Ms Begum’s case. She was “married off” to an ISIL fighter shortly after her arrival in Syria and spent much of the following four years pregnant. Her three babies have all died. She remained in ISIL territory until January 2019, at which time she was in the ninth month of her pregnancy (her third child died in March 2019, three weeks old). Whatever the extent of her ideological commitment before she left in February 2015, Ms Begum could not have had any inkling of how much personal suffering she was destined to endure."

And for those who suggest she was a "victim" in 2019 she said.........

"Even though I was only 15 years old … I could make my own decisions back then. I do have the mentality to make my own decisions and I did leave on my own knowing that it was a risk.”

 

[Marston Road yellow]

Why would that be the only way to draw a line under it? I think I'm probably more sympathetic to your argument than I am to the other, but there's something very typical of this debate and other culture war touchstones in your statement which is roughly "The only correct way to move on from this is if we do the thing I think we should do"

It's complex and ugly and I shouldn't think there's ever a satisfactory answer. My preference is to move on from it and reflect on the darkness of our decision making when enough time has passed to think about it in a useful way. Right now it's just tantrums left right and centre

I have a different opinion on how to close it down it wasn’t a criticism. And yes it’s ugly but we hold ourselves to high standards and should meet them.

 

[ubermeistervonmeat]

Can't cancel her passport as she would be left "stateless" and we are to humanitarian to do that.
If she can't fund a legitimate return then there she stays.

Personally I would send a squad into the camp and tap her off, problem solved.

nice one Adolf

 

[Marston Road yellow]

Tricky one to answer concisely as Ms Begum has made a number of choices during the legal process.
Some of those were also "not in her favour" as revealed in yesterdays judgement.

https://www.judiciary.uk/wp-content/uploads/2023/02/Shamima-Begum-OPEN-Judgment.pdf

"The Commission having decided she should not be permitted to advance certain grounds with others being stayed, concluded that Ms Begum’s options were twofold: either to accept that the entirety of her appeal should be stayed until her circumstances changed and instructions could be given; or, alternatively, instruct her legal team to advance her appeal without those instructions. She chose the latter course."

As for "what she did" that is in the closed aspect of the case.

"There is a limit as to what may be said in OPEN about what happened to Ms Begum in Syria. On the basis of what is in the public domain, any fair-minded person would have to agree that Hayden J’s generic predictions as to what could well happen to those exploited in this way have been amply borne out in Ms Begum’s case. She was “married off” to an ISIL fighter shortly after her arrival in Syria and spent much of the following four years pregnant. Her three babies have all died. She remained in ISIL territory until January 2019, at which time she was in the ninth month of her pregnancy (her third child died in March 2019, three weeks old). Whatever the extent of her ideological commitment before she left in February 2015, Ms Begum could not have had any inkling of how much personal suffering she was destined to endure."

And for those who suggest she was a "victim" in 2019 she said.........

"Even though I was only 15 years old … I could make my own decisions back then. I do have the mentality to make my own decisions and I did leave on my own knowing that it was a risk.”

There cannot be security issues bringing her to the UK for trial unless she doesn’t have a case to answer and would walk free from court, in which case she would legally be “innocent”. If she is guilty she’d be incarcerated and under the watchful eye of the prison authorities, and couldn’t pose a threat.

It seems that there isn’t a desire to try her in abstentia.

The government may feel that she is a threat but hasn’t done anything wrong yet in which case she’s still “innocent” and I get that means it’s problematic. But we have a legal system to protect the individual not the majority and if that’s what we hold dear we need to adhere to it.

At 15 she was legally a child and any decision she made would have been as a child irrelevant of what she says then or now.

I don’t doubt that she could be a monster. I am sure that the authorities know more than we do and have decided that she’s not nice and better off for the Uk in the desert. I know few people id send to a desert given half a chance …. I do however question if that decision was theres to make. It seems she’s Guilty till proven guilty.

 

[QR]

Tricky one to answer concisely as Ms Begum has made a number of choices during the legal process.
Some of those were also "not in her favour" as revealed in yesterdays judgement.

https://www.judiciary.uk/wp-content/uploads/2023/02/Shamima-Begum-OPEN-Judgment.pdf

"The Commission having decided she should not be permitted to advance certain grounds with others being stayed, concluded that Ms Begum’s options were twofold: either to accept that the entirety of her appeal should be stayed until her circumstances changed and instructions could be given; or, alternatively, instruct her legal team to advance her appeal without those instructions. She chose the latter course."

As for "what she did" that is in the closed aspect of the case.

"There is a limit as to what may be said in OPEN about what happened to Ms Begum in Syria. On the basis of what is in the public domain, any fair-minded person would have to agree that Hayden J’s generic predictions as to what could well happen to those exploited in this way have been amply borne out in Ms Begum’s case. She was “married off” to an ISIL fighter shortly after her arrival in Syria and spent much of the following four years pregnant. Her three babies have all died. She remained in ISIL territory until January 2019, at which time she was in the ninth month of her pregnancy (her third child died in March 2019, three weeks old). Whatever the extent of her ideological commitment before she left in February 2015, Ms Begum could not have had any inkling of how much personal suffering she was destined to endure."

And for those who suggest she was a "victim" in 2019 she said.........

"Even though I was only 15 years old … I could make my own decisions back then. I do have the mentality to make my own decisions and I did leave on my own knowing that it was a risk.”

The bottom line is our laws and justice have to be as consistent as possible for them to be fair. If a 17 year old does not have the mental capacity to make an informed decision at the ballot box, despite the fact that their one vote will probably never be the deciding vote on any election, how can 15 year old have the mental capacity to make the life changing decisions she made under adult influence?

 

[ZeroTheHero]

Without focussing on this case in particular, I think that removing the citizenship of someone when they are abroad so they can't come back sets a very dangerous precedent. If that becomes acceptable any future extreme government will just do that to their opponents if they dare to go abroad, claiming 'national security'. Sounds exactly like something Putin would do.

 

[bashamwonderland]

What justice??? She hasn’t had a trial.

We fought precisely so that people could have a fair trial and not be subject to kangaroo courts and a warped shariah systems and then when we win we leave people to rot in a desert. Yes she is being punished but we don’t quite know what she is specifically being punished for.

At the moment all we know is that as a child she was groomed into joining a cause and then sexuality exploited. If that had been written about a pretty white girl I’m sure you’d be in uproar.

She can’t have a trial because she hasn’t been brought home.

Couldn't care less what her skin looks like - anyone who willingly joins ISIS, and fails to properly repent for that, can die in the desert.

 

[bazzer9461]

Just to add my two penny worth.
Bring her back try her for terrorism and sentence her appropriately.

 

[Marston Road yellow]

Couldn't care less what her skin looks like - anyone who willingly joins ISIS, and fails to properly repent for that, can die in the desert.

Child who is radicalised and brainwashed should spend the rest of their days rotting in the desert…

God I hope your loved ones never get caught up in anything that you don’t agree with.

 

[Sheik djibouti]

https://newsthump.com/2023/02/22/wh...MBQ76jvTKEx0ADwnjmsX7fWw&utm_content=cmp-true