National News Shamima Begum

QR said:
Simple question, if your 15 year old daughter was groomed and trafficked by a adult male would you blame her?
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Not for the initial grooming, I`ll give her that slight benefit of the doubt as being gullible/vulnerable

However she made her way, under her own steam to Istanbul before meeting the trafficker.
And then, over several years..........
She bred and interacted with terrorists.... ten days after arriving in Syria she married a convert to Islam.
She got pregnant 4 times.
She then joined the religious police.
She took part in stitching suicide bombers into their vests to stop them "changing their mind".
She normalised brutality and death.
She has never expressed regret about her decision to join ISIL.
She said she had been unfazed by seeing the head of a beheaded man as he was "an enemy of Islam".
She said the enslavement, rape & murder of Yazidi women was fine.
Her side "lost" - she realised it was pretty rough being out there.
Her own father has said, "If she at least admitted she made a mistake then I would feel sorry for her and other people would feel sorry for her, but she does not accept her wrong."

Leave her where she is - there is a long queue of better people waiting for justice.
 
bashamwonderland said:
If only every question was as simple as your rhetoric makes it out to be
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You will see that I haven't said she is innocent and I haven't said she shouldn't face justice via the courts, I've just asking what your view would be if your daughter's route into crime was via the grooming of an adult male. It may be a simplicity question but it's a fair one. In fact I think it's a question that makes the situation 'real' rather than easy to respond to hate target.
 
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Essexyellows said:
Not for the initial grooming, I`ll give her that slight benefit of the doubt as being gullible/vulnerable

However she made her way, under her own steam to Istanbul before meeting the trafficker.
And then, over several years..........
She bred and interacted with terrorists.... ten days after arriving in Syria she married a convert to Islam.
She got pregnant 4 times.
She then joined the religious police.
She took part in stitching suicide bombers into their vests to stop them "changing their mind".
She normalised brutality and death.
She has never expressed regret about her decision to join ISIL.
She said she had been unfazed by seeing the head of a beheaded man as he was "an enemy of Islam".
She said the enslavement, rape & murder of Yazidi women was fine.
Her side "lost" - she realised it was pretty rough being out there.
Her own father has said, "If she at least admitted she made a mistake then I would feel sorry for her and other people would feel sorry for her, but she does not accept her wrong."

Leave her where she is - there is a long queue of better people waiting for justice.
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Seems the long queue for justice doesn`t apply to this one, barely 3 months later........

"IS bride Shamima Begum is today starting the latest battle to win back her UK citizenship which was withdrawn by the Home Office. She is challenging the Home Office in court and a five-day hearing at the Special Immigration Appeals Commission (SIAC) in London will be taking place this week."
 
bashamwonderland said:
Tenuous link made to Begum in the article but it's hard to see how the two cases are similar, but for the fact that they involve a female who was radicalised...
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Just to understand your position on this what do you think it is OK to groom a 15 year old for?
 
OUFCGav said:
Seems a girl being groomed to be a terrorist is a valid argument for some defendants - https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-63736944
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boogaloo said:
I'm guessing in that particular scenario, the girl doesn't have dual nationality, therefore home secretary Cruella Braverman can't strip her of her nationality and throw our rubbish over the fence.
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In this case the benefit is the person in question no longer presents a problem. Dead people tend not too.

QR said:
Just to understand your position on this what do you think it is OK to groom a 15 year old for?
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See my earlier post on this thread, Begum actively engaged with, participated in and supported "the cause" when an adult - unfortunately that problem remains breathing.
 
OUFCGav said:
Both children that were radicalised by adults exploiting them for terrorist ends.
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The actual facts of both cases are so different as to render any comparison between the two completely disingenuous.

In what way does this girl's case support a case for Begum being flown back to the UK? That's the part I'm trying to understand.
 
Scotchegg said:
Absolutely disgusting response to a 16 year old girl taking her own life.
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Had she committed a terrorist attack and killed innocent people its nice to know you would be OK with that.

Plenty of people deserve more sympathy and empathy than terrorists - irrespective of their "cause", age or circumstance.

Killing innocent people solves nothing.
 
Essexyellows said:
Had she committed a terrorist attack and killed innocent people its nice to know you would be OK with that.

Plenty of people deserve more sympathy and empathy than terrorists - irrespective of their "cause", age or circumstance.

Killing innocent people solves nothing.
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f**k me! Do you not read anything? The only innocent person to die was this young girl who had been exploited by older males and let down by the system that should have protected her.
 
Scotchegg said:
f**k me! Do you not read anything? The only innocent person to die was this young girl who had been exploited by older males and let down by the system that should have protected her.
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Personal responsibility, consequences and choices.

"By September 2020, Ms Carter had become so concerned by Rhianan's mindset that she referred her to Prevent, the government de-radicalisation scheme, after she admitted downloading a bomb-making manual."

That is an offence and it has consequences elsewhere in "the system".

"Within a month, Rhianan was arrested by counter-terror detectives and her brief engagement with Prevent had to end."

Those were the consequences.

The only system failings are, as ever, communication.

"Under modern slavery laws, certain public bodies like the police are required to notify the Home Office about any potential victims of exploitation they encounter.
However, in the months before Rhianan was charged, none of the organisations involved referred her to the specialist Home Office unit that considers such cases."

And then there was a second attempt to engage her with the system.........

"After the prosecution of Rhianan was abandoned, she chose to continue living in her Nottinghamshire children's home and began engaging with the Prevent scheme.
But there were signs that all was not well.
In the weeks before her death, Rhianan asked her mother to help her contact a neo-Nazi extremist in the US."


So yes, I do read and look at things more pragmatically than the rose tinted super heroes who think they can save everyone...................
 
bashamwonderland said:
The actual facts of both cases are so different as to render any comparison between the two completely disingenuous.

In what way does this girl's case support a case for Begum being flown back to the UK? That's the part I'm trying to understand.
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both were groomed as children by radicals. In one case they are saying being groomed is a reason not to prosecute. In another they say it is not.
 
OUFCGav said:
both were groomed as children by radicals. In one case they are saying being groomed is a reason not to prosecute. In another they say it is not.
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In one case one was engaged with the system and its consequences.
In one case one was not engaged with the system and its consequences.

In both cases there are failings within "the system", but they are far outweighed by the choices made by the individuals.
 
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