National News The Brexit Thread 🇬🇧🇪🇺

[Eric Blair]

Got to hand it to Putin. It's going exactly how he wanted it to go

Sad but true. And then Trump is the US too.

 

[Marston Road yellow]

I don't think it's the so-called patriots who are angry about Brexit. If this thread is anything to go by, its the other side bearing the grudge.

Makes for amusing reading tho.

Who’s not a patriot? I think that Brexit was the most stunningly stupid thing we as a nation could have done because I knew it would make most of us poorer but I am absolutely a patriot.

I’m glad that you are amused by reading about people’s misery.

Sums up the rich Brexiteer approach of the wealthy being alright Jack and the poorer getting screwed again.

 

[bashamwonderland]

Who’s not a patriot? I think that Brexit was the most stunningly stupid thing we as a nation could have done because I knew it would make most of us poorer but I am absolutely a patriot.

I’m glad that you are amused by reading about people’s misery.

Sums up the rich Brexiteer approach of the wealthy being alright Jack and the poorer getting screwed again.

It's amusement, but also immense satisfaction. Remembering some of the things said about working class people and poor areas at the time. That they are racists, gammons, stupid, under educated. The patronising tone. It was a time when the middle classes allowed themselves to hate the lower classes openly.

I just love that those people - the Ian Middleton's of the world - are still totally miserable about it.

 

[MustardYellow]

Who’s not a patriot? I think that Brexit was the most stunningly stupid thing we as a nation could have done because I knew it would make most of us poorer but I am absolutely a patriot.

I’m glad that you are amused by reading about people’s misery.

Sums up the rich Brexiteer approach of the wealthy being alright Jack and the poorer getting screwed again.

I don't think a lot of younger people would describe themselves as patriots, to be fair.

 

[SteMerritt]

I don't think a lot of younger people would describe themselves as patriots, to be fair.

I'm not sure a lot of the middle age generations would either to be honest. Horrible US-centric word.

 

[Eric Blair]

It's amusement, but also immense satisfaction. Remembering some of the things said about working class people and poor areas at the time. That they are racists, gammons, stupid, under educated. The patronising tone. It was a time when the middle classes allowed themselves to hate the lower classes openly.

I just love that those people - the Ian Middleton's of the world - are still totally miserable about it.

I think that is an oversimplification @bashamwonderland . I agree with you that I hate the sneering towards working class people and the community around it. I consider myself from a working class background - grandson of a London docker and on the other side a butcher. My dad was a copper and became a sergeant in the Met. I was the first of my family to go to university and now I live in God's own city - Oxford. I am definitely no Ian Middleton. I also dont think though that working class people voted for leave and middle class people voted remain. That is a gross over simplification.

I do consider myself to be an open-eyed patriot (much like my hero George Orwell) but I am also pro-a reformed EU and thought it was better for all of us when we stayed in. @Marston Road yellow is spot on about being a patriot and wanting to remain in the EU.

You cant conflate "remain voter" with sneering middle class just like you cant conflated remain voter with stupid and racist (which I definitely don't).

 

[MustardYellow]

I'm not sure a lot of the middle age generations would either to be honest. Horrible US-centric word.

I probably would've as a teenager, but as I've got older I wouldn't say so. Hard to be 'patriotic' when you constantly feel like you're being screwed over!

 

[bashamwonderland]

I think that is an oversimplification @bashamwonderland . I agree with you that I hate the sneering towards working class people and the community around it. I consider myself from a working class background - grandson of a London docker and on the other side a butcher. My dad was a copper and became a sergeant in the Met. I was the first of my family to go to university and now I live in God's own city - Oxford. I am definitely no Ian Middleton. I also dont think though that working class people voted for leave and middle class people voted remain. That is a gross over simplification.

I do consider myself to be an open-eyed patriot (much like my hero George Orwell) but I am also pro-a reformed EU and thought it was better for all of us when we stayed in. @Marston Road yellow is spot on about being a patriot and wanting to remain in the EU.

You cant conflate "remain voter" with sneering middle class just like you cant conflated remain voter with stupid and racist (which I definitely don't).

A perfectly fair response, and the majority of remain voters were of course decent ordinary people, as you appear to be.

But the general tone at the time, from what I could hear on TV and radio, and my conversations with colleagues in professional offices where everybody just presumed I was voting remain, was very telling. It's amazing what people would allow themselves to say about people they considered "lower class" when they thought they were in safe company.

 

[Sheik djibouti]

I don't know whether everyone is aware of this, but the UK still looks to implement EU Directives, mainly for the purposes of alignment to allow us to continue to function on many different practical levels and to avoid further detriment to our economy. Of course, we call it domestic law, but the vast majority of the standards are borne out of EU Directives to ensure alignment with our closest neighbour and most important markets.

Sorry to be the bearer of bad news, but that not really going to change all that much as long as Europe continues to be an important trading partner . . .. which it will.

 

[QR]

Remembering some of the things said about working class people and poor areas at the time. That they are racists, gammons, stupid, under educated. The patronising tone. It was a time when the middle classes allowed themselves to hate the lower classes openly.

Actually, no I don't remember any serious commentators in the remain camp saying such things. Can you give some examples.

 

[bashamwonderland]

Actually, no I don't remember any serious commentators in the remain camp saying such things. Can you give some examples.

You'll have to bear with me, as I will need to reach out to my ex-colleagues and gather witness statements.

If you're asking for outright allegations against specific individuals, from the top of my head, Emily Thornberry (surprise suprise) was accused of calling leave voters idiots, by an MP in her own party. James O'Brien on LBC is guilty of doing it, and I believe Jeremy Clarkson also made some pretty strong comments about leave voters.

I could probably dig up more but I don't have time right now.

Also, I see you've asked for examples from "serious commentators in the remain campaign" but I have no idea who you consider to be "serious", and in any event my comments weren't about the official remain campaign per se, but instead people affiliated and strongly aligned with the "remain" message.

 

[Sheik djibouti]

You'll have to bear with me, as I will need to reach out to my ex-colleagues and gather witness statements.

If you're asking for outright allegations against specific individuals, from the top of my head, Emily Thornberry (surprise suprise) was accused of calling leave voters idiots, by an MP in her own party. James O'Brien on LBC is guilty of doing it, and I believe Jeremy Clarkson also made some pretty strong comments about leave voters.

I could probably dig up more but I don't have time right now.

Also, I see you've asked for examples from "serious commentators in the remain campaign" but I have no idea who you consider to be "serious", and in any event my comments weren't about the official remain campaign per se, but instead people affiliated and strongly aligned with the "remain" message.

Newsflash!

Intelligent people can be idiots too.

I'm sure there are some intelligent people who thought Liz Truss would be a competent Tory Leader and PM.

And there are those who believed that Boris/Trump tell the truth.

Probably not stupid, but naive, sheltered and gullible?

 

[bashamwonderland]

Newsflash!

Intelligent people can be idiots too.

I'm sure there are some intelligent people who thought Liz Truss would be a competent Tory Leader and PM.

And there are those who believed that Boris/Trump tell the truth.

Probably not stupid, but naive, sheltered and gullible?

Case in point! 17 million "naive, sheltered and gullible" people, even when you're trying to provide the reassurance that you don't think they're stupid

Oh man, it's just such a good feeling.

 

[Marston Road yellow]

You'll have to bear with me, as I will need to reach out to my ex-colleagues and gather witness statements.

If you're asking for outright allegations against specific individuals, from the top of my head, Emily Thornberry (surprise suprise) was accused of calling leave voters idiots, by an MP in her own party. James O'Brien on LBC is guilty of doing it, and I believe Jeremy Clarkson also made some pretty strong comments about leave voters.

I could probably dig up more but I don't have time right now.

Also, I see you've asked for examples from "serious commentators in the remain campaign" but I have no idea who you consider to be "serious", and in any event my comments weren't about the official remain campaign per se, but instead people affiliated and strongly aligned with the "remain" message.

Seriously you could have said I don’t have any and that we should get back to being Waitrose shopping, guardian reading elites which is what was levelled at us by a Tory MP, ( who in most peoples eyes is an elite)

I love my country and I find it obtuse that people suggest because I wanted closer ties to Europe that I don’t love my country. It’s because I do love my country that I wanted closer ties to Europe.

We voted to leave, and that I accepted. We did not vote to walk through europes house with dog s**t all over our shoes telling them to shove everything where he sun doesn’t shine.

I’m still waiting for anyone to explain how they had a mandate to do that and what benefit it was to us as a nation.

 

[Sheik djibouti]

Case in point! 17 million "naive, sheltered and gullible" people, even when you're trying to provide the reassurance that you don't think they're stupid

Oh man, it's just such a good feeling.

So, the very thing you objected to as you felt "put upon" during the whole lead up to the referendum, is now fine and everyone is fair game. Gotcha!

The evidence very much suggests that you were wrong and just a tad gullible to give the likes of Aaron Banks, Nigel Farage and Boris Johnson any creedence all along.

Still waiting for those sweet, sweet Brexit benefits. Pretty thin gruel for you to work with so far. But if all you ever wanted was to stick the finger up at all those that didn't want to leave and that you felt had patronised you, then I guess you were only ever in it for the pyrrhic victories all along and f**k everyone else, which is really quite sad.

Patriotism, right there

 

[bashamwonderland]

Seriously you could have said I don’t have any and that we should get back to being Waitrose shopping, guardian reading elites which is what was levelled at us by a Tory MP, ( who in most peoples eyes is an elite)

I love my country and I find it obtuse that people suggest because I wanted closer ties to Europe that I don’t love my country. It’s because I do love my country that I wanted closer ties to Europe.

We voted to leave, and that I accepted. We did not vote to walk through europes house with dog s**t all over our shoes telling them to shove everything where he sun doesn’t shine.

I’m still waiting for anyone to explain how they had a mandate to do that and what benefit it was to us as a nation.

What do you mean I don't have any? I gave three off the top of my head, in my post...

You then start commenting on my feelings about your love of your country, which literally makes no sense as that's not what QR or I were even talking about. I have no interest in how patriotic you claim to be!

Anyway I've had my fun now, you can all continue shouting into the void.

 

[MustardYellow]

Isn't most of this sort of irrelevant? Whatever we may think of who voted for Brexit and why, it's happened and isn't going to be reversed.

What the subsequent years have shown us is absolutely no one in our political class has any interest in improving the lives and outcomes of normal people. They don't even seem to be trying.

Brexit or not - our politicians are the issue.

 

[Wandering Yellow]

A perfectly fair response, and the majority of remain voters were of course decent ordinary people, as you appear to be.

But the general tone at the time, from what I could hear on TV and radio, and my conversations with colleagues in professional offices where everybody just presumed I was voting remain, was very telling. It's amazing what people would allow themselves to say about people they considered "lower class" when they thought they were in safe company.

I had the exact same experience as you. And I heard plenty of disparaging nonsense about "racists/idiots voting leave blah blah". (most of) my family come from a tough working class background, some of the loveliest people you can meet, and voted leave. It never failed to grind my gears the way a section of our society was spoken about, by people with privileged middle-class upbringings completely unaffected by a lot of hardships working class people voted on. I had the last laugh and the satisfaction of the result.

This thread is essentially shouting into the void as you say. At the end of the day there were idiots on every side. For every @Eric Blair there's a Marston Road Yellow. Probably the same on the "leave" side.

The only thing I disagree with you on @Eric Blair is that we could have reformed the EU from the inside. They have zero interest in reform and it's a level of bureaucracy over there that would make even Whitehall shudder. You are a very fair man though and if everyone on the Remain side was like you I'd have much more sympathy for Remain arguments.

For me leaving the EU was always going to be messy. A Liam Manning exit rather than an Alex Ferguson exit was inevitable.

 

[Wandering Yellow]

Isn't most of this sort of irrelevant? Whatever we may think of who voted for Brexit and why, it's happened and isn't going to be reversed.

What the subsequent years have shown us is absolutely no one in our political class has any interest in improving the lives and outcomes of normal people. They don't even seem to be trying.

Brexit or not - our politicians are the issue.

Couldn't agree any more with you MY.

Power always corrupts, the more power, the more the corruption. Hoping for a politician to come and save you is like believing in the tooth fairy. I trust the British public more than any greasy politician.

I'm sure there are some decent MPs/people involved in local politics but my experience has been overwhelmingly negative. Self-obsessed narcissists who think they should be the ones to tell other people what to do always seem to be drawn toward trying to get political power. Wanting to be a politician should automatically disqualify anyone from becoming so.

 

[QR]

What do you mean I don't have any? I gave three off the top of my head, in my post...

You then start commenting on my feelings about your love of your country, which literally makes no sense as that's not what QR or I were even talking about. I have no interest in how patriotic you claim to be!

Anyway I've had my fun now, you can all continue shouting into the void.

You said 'at the time'. I really do not recall the calling out of leavers in the way you said until after the vote. It may have happened but I honestly don't recall it and you have not given any examples apart from 'guys in your office'.

Edit. What I do remember is warning of the detrimental impact Brexit would have on the economy (which are proven to be true) shouted down as project fear. I also remember this....