New Stadium Plans - The Triangle - Planning

[Billyox]

Now costing £130-150M. Jeez. With rent and interest to pay on top. There comes a point where you have to take a pause and have a serious rethink about whether this is good for the future of our club, the investors and the balance sheet.

Well to pay it off they have to spend more because the only way we will make more money is to be in a higher league much like Luton one season in the premier and their new stadium is paid for

 

[Ewes]

Guys, investors don’t just hand over large sums by way of unsecured loans. And from the FF it sounded like multiple, many investors they hope* to attract. The authorities will be all over things looking for laundered money.

* Hope. No mention of who these will be. We’re hoping to put spades in the ground next year so we ought to have signed pre-contract finance deals already. Yes, the owners are wealthy and probably know many other wealthy people. Do you think they made their wealth from handing over millions without security and guarantees?

The interest alone on that would be anything up to £60K a week. We’ve been told there would be varying amounts of debt and interest levels, and loan periods.

We’ve heard a lot of the word ‘sustainable’. That means we’ve got to be able to thrive as a club in the community and service the debt, plus have enough set aside for a rainy day, stadium repairs, extra legal costs etc. Our current ‘record turnover’ of £7M a year is already paying off our existing huge debt. So ticket sales each year if constant at the current level would just about pay the interest. At some stage we’d be hoping for a promotion, extra TV revenue, stadium naming right income, income from the hotel (assuming that’s not part of a separate trading company) plus some major player sales to keep on top of even low-level debt repayments.

In my view this is not sustainable from an economic perspective. This is like a 21st century version of ‘The Emperor’s New Clothes’ where everyone convinced each other it’s a good idea and blocks out common sense.

What would be my alternative? Either offer Ka$$am £20M to buy the existing place and hotel next door and redevelop it. Or set our sights much, much lower and build something small which we can add to depending on future success.

I honestly can’t see any way that the wheels won’t fall off and we’re left ground-sharing with Reading for a few seasons.

 

[Orkney Islands Yellow]

Guys, investors don’t just hand over large sums by way of unsecured loans. And from the FF it sounded like multiple, many investors they hope* to attract. The authorities will be all over things looking for laundered money.

* Hope. No mention of who these will be. We’re hoping to put spades in the ground next year so we ought to have signed pre-contract finance deals already. Yes, the owners are wealthy and probably know many other wealthy people. Do you think they made their wealth from handing over millions without security and guarantees?

The interest alone on that would be anything up to £60K a week. We’ve been told there would be varying amounts of debt and interest levels, and loan periods.

We’ve heard a lot of the word ‘sustainable’. That means we’ve got to be able to thrive as a club in the community and service the debt, plus have enough set aside for a rainy day, stadium repairs, extra legal costs etc. Our current ‘record turnover’ of £7M a year is already paying off our existing huge debt. So ticket sales each year if constant at the current level would just about pay the interest. At some stage we’d be hoping for a promotion, extra TV revenue, stadium naming right income, income from the hotel (assuming that’s not part of a separate trading company) plus some major player sales to keep on top of even low-level debt repayments.

In my view this is not sustainable from an economic perspective. This is like a 21st century version of ‘The Emperor’s New Clothes’ where everyone convinced each other it’s a good idea and blocks out common sense.

What would be my alternative? Either offer Ka$$am £20M to buy the existing place and hotel next door and redevelop it. Or set our sights much, much lower and build something small which we can add to depending on future success.

I honestly can’t see any way that the wheels won’t fall off and we’re left ground-sharing with Reading for a few seasons.

Whilst that sounds like a lot of money to those of us not in finance, multi-national business or football, it's not for those in football.

Let's not forget Jacob Murphy once cost £12million!

 

[Billyox]

Guys, investors don’t just hand over large sums by way of unsecured loans. And from the FF it sounded like multiple, many investors they hope* to attract. The authorities will be all over things looking for laundered money.

* Hope. No mention of who these will be. We’re hoping to put spades in the ground next year so we ought to have signed pre-contract finance deals already. Yes, the owners are wealthy and probably know many other wealthy people. Do you think they made their wealth from handing over millions without security and guarantees?

The interest alone on that would be anything up to £60K a week. We’ve been told there would be varying amounts of debt and interest levels, and loan periods.

We’ve heard a lot of the word ‘sustainable’. That means we’ve got to be able to thrive as a club in the community and service the debt, plus have enough set aside for a rainy day, stadium repairs, extra legal costs etc. Our current ‘record turnover’ of £7M a year is already paying off our existing huge debt. So ticket sales each year if constant at the current level would just about pay the interest. At some stage we’d be hoping for a promotion, extra TV revenue, stadium naming right income, income from the hotel (assuming that’s not part of a separate trading company) plus some major player sales to keep on top of even low-level debt repayments.

In my view this is not sustainable from an economic perspective. This is like a 21st century version of ‘The Emperor’s New Clothes’ where everyone convinced each other it’s a good idea and blocks out common sense.

What would be my alternative? Either offer Ka$$am £20M to buy the existing place and hotel next door and redevelop it. Or set our sights much, much lower and build something small which we can add to depending on future success.

I honestly can’t see any way that the wheels won’t fall off and we’re left ground-sharing with Reading for a few seasons.

By all accounts the kassam is falling to bits and most if not all would need pulling down and rebuilding so what would the point be of probably spending more on the kassam than a brand new stadium the other problem being kassam doesn't want to sell in the first place

 

[Ewes]

Whilst that sounds like a lot of money to those of us not in finance, multi-national business or football, it's not for those in football.

Let's not forget Jacob Murphy once cost £12million!

It’s twice what Brentford’s stadium cost on prime land in the capital, but they presumably knew they could afford it after a season or two in the PL.

The EFL ownership rules were tightened in 2023 so the board need to be able to transparently demonstrate every year how they are funding the club going forward.

My main worry is that we’re not even able to trim our existing debt and there is no real prospect of us getting into the PL ever, let alone in the time needed to repay new debt. So, we’d be shuffling around eye-watering levels of debt like Derby, Bolton and Reading have done and still languishing in Lge1.

 

[Ewes]

By all accounts the kassam is falling to bits and most if not all would need pulling down and rebuilding so what would the point be of probably spending more on the kassam than a brand new stadium the other problem being kassam doesn't want to sell in the first place

Yes, I get that. We’ve well and truly burnt our bridges with him. Poor planning by the current and previous owner not to at least rebuild the landlord-tenant relationship.

But he’s a businessman and if he thinks our offer is more than he’ll get from selling the land for housing (once he has paid to remove the covenant and got the bulldozers in) then there remains a chance. Repairing each stand one at a time and eventually erecting a fourth stand is more financially viable than selling our soul to a group of investors we won’t even know and who will likely end up owning the new stadium and charging us more rent than we currently pay.

 

[holdsteady]

Yes, I get that. We’ve well and truly burnt our bridges with him. Poor planning by the current and previous owner not to at least rebuild the landlord-tenant relationship.

But he’s a businessman and if he thinks our offer is more than he’ll get from selling the land for housing (once he has paid to remove the covenant and got the bulldozers in) then there remains a chance. Repairing each stand one at a time and eventually erecting a fourth stand is more financially viable than selling our soul to a group of investors we won’t even know and who will likely end up owning the new stadium and charging us more rent than we currently pay.

Who is going to buy the Kassam and do all that?

How much debt would that leave us in?

 

[LowerSouth]

Yes, I get that. We’ve well and truly burnt our bridges with him. Poor planning by the current and previous owner not to at least rebuild the landlord-tenant relationship.

But he’s a businessman and if he thinks our offer is more than he’ll get from selling the land for housing (once he has paid to remove the covenant and got the bulldozers in) then there remains a chance. Repairing each stand one at a time and eventually erecting a fourth stand is more financially viable than selling our soul to a group of investors we won’t even know and who will likely end up owning the new stadium and charging us more rent than we currently pay.
[/QUOTE
So what figure do you think the shareholders could buy the Kassam for ?

 

[Orkney Islands Yellow]

It’s twice what Brentford’s stadium cost on prime land in the capital, but they presumably knew they could afford it after a season or two in the PL.

The EFL ownership rules were tightened in 2023 so the board need to be able to transparently demonstrate every year how they are funding the club going forward.

My main worry is that we’re not even able to trim our existing debt and there is no real prospect of us getting into the PL ever, let alone in the time needed to repay new debt. So, we’d be shuffling around eye-watering levels of debt like Derby, Bolton and Reading have done and still languishing in Lge1.

We're not the first football club our owners have owned or what the board have been board members of. This isn't the first stadium our owner has has built (if approved).

The experience and capability is there and proven.

It's a shame you can support OUFC at this critical time.

 

[Concretebob]

Yes, I get that. We’ve well and truly burnt our bridges with him. Poor planning by the current and previous owner not to at least rebuild the landlord-tenant relationship.

But he’s a businessman and if he thinks our offer is more than he’ll get from selling the land for housing (once he has paid to remove the covenant and got the bulldozers in) then there remains a chance. Repairing each stand one at a time and eventually erecting a fourth stand is more financially viable than selling our soul to a group of investors we won’t even know and who will likely end up owning the new stadium and charging us more rent than we currently pay.

The whole idea of the lease with OCC is to prevent yet another Kassam style situation. I trust you watched the meeting last September?

 

[unification]

Who is going to buy the Kassam and do all that?

How much debt would that leave us in?

Plus what would they benefit from it? Having a run down hotel that’s used as an asylum seeker holding bay and a colossal retrofit job on their hands.

It wouldn’t solve any issues that we have now either in terms of accessibility.

 

[Scotchegg]

Yes, I get that. We’ve well and truly burnt our bridges with him. Poor planning by the current and previous owner not to at least rebuild the landlord-tenant relationship.

But he’s a businessman and if he thinks our offer is more than he’ll get from selling the land for housing (once he has paid to remove the covenant and got the bulldozers in) then there remains a chance. Repairing each stand one at a time and eventually erecting a fourth stand is more financially viable than selling our soul to a group of investors we won’t even know and who will likely end up owning the new stadium and charging us more rent than we currently pay.

We've had these comments from you before, but yet again you appear to have had your eyes and ears closed for the last few years when this has been discussed.

Kassam will not sell the stadium to Oxford United. Several people have tried, all have failed. Even if it was for sale Kassam wouldn't accept a single penny less than he would get for housing on the site. This would mean paying well over the odds for a stadium which is already falling to bits in places. We would them need to rebuild the entire stadium over several years at huge additional cost that would mirror the costs of the new stadium.

The alternative is an incredible new stadium with a complete fresh start for the club in a location which couldn't be better from a transport perspective.

Of course the debt is a problem. But we'd be in the same position or worse if we stayed at the Kassam anyway, and he'd get another huge pay day off the club.

We need to move, and the Triangle is the only option on the table and we all need to get behind that so we can finally get away from the Kassam curse.

 

[holdsteady]

Plus what would they benefit from it? Having a run down hotel that’s used as an asylum seeker holding bay and a colossal retrofit job on their hands.

It wouldn’t solve any issues that we have now either in terms of accessibility.

You also still have Kassam as a neighbour and owner of most of the car parking, so not free of him and his problem making.

I am not certain Ewes plan is as cheap as he thinks it is, Kassam will want top money, it was £16 million for just the pitch, 3 stands and 4th stand footprint over a decade ago, so with inflation, the extra bits he wants to buy and the fact we are desperate I reckon you are talking double his £20 million. So £40 million plus then doing up (basically building a new stadium) the current ground, which isn’t going to be much cheaper than building a new ground, so we are talking going into massive debt still even if you do it on the cheap.

Our very rich owners don’t fancy it, they would have gone for that option if they did. No previous owner has fancied it, no one seems to have been queuing up to do it over the last twenty years either.

So who are the “we” who are going to buy the Kassam and spend all this money while funding the club? They don’t seem to exist so Ewes plan has a massive hole in it.

 

[Ewes]

It's a shame you can support OUFC at this critical time.

My point is that I’d actually like to support our club for the long-term, not see them fold.

 

[Yellowarmy]

My point is that I’d actually like to support our club for the long-term, not see them fold.

We have been treading water for years. This stadium is our only chance to progress. There are no other options and let's face it, this stadium looks amazing.

 

[Yellowarmy]

Strange to think in a year or so everton and spurs will have the best grounds in the prem by far.

 

[holdsteady]

My point is that I’d actually like to support our club for the long-term, not see them fold.

Just as likely to happen staying at the Kassam though?

 

[Ewes]

We would them need to rebuild the entire stadium over several years at huge additional cost that would mirror the costs of the new stadium.

Quite clearly it wouldn’t. Attending to some repairs in an existing, relatively new stadium wouldn’t be anywhere near as much as buying the land, infrastructure and building a new place.

The alternative is an incredible new stadium with a complete fresh start for the club in a location which couldn't be better from a transport perspective.

The alternative is a stadium that will cost twice as much as Brentford’s, and be half the size of it. The ‘fresh start’ as you put it would be saddling ourselves with even more eye-watering levels of unaffordable debt.

Of course the debt is a problem. But we'd be in the same position or worse if we stayed at the Kassam anyway, and he'd get another huge pay day off the club.

We’ve left things too late to have worked out a proper Plan B. I’ve got no desire to stay at the Ka$$am not line his pockets further.

But we haven’t sorted out whose magic money tree is going to yield £150M for a lower league club to get a shiny new stadium.

The closest thing to a Plan B is to stay where we are and slowly redevelop the place at our own pace and in a sustainable manner based on our income, debt levels and league position.

We need to move, and the Triangle is the only option on the table and we all need to get behind that so we can finally get away from the Kassam curse.

On this, I reluctantly agree but it doesn’t mean I can’t see the huge risks involved.

 

[holdsteady]

Quite clearly it wouldn’t. Attending to some repairs in an existing, relatively new stadium wouldn’t be anywhere near as much as buying the land, infrastructure and building a new place.


The alternative is a stadium that will cost twice as much as Brentford’s, and be half the size of it. The ‘fresh start’ as you put it would be saddling ourselves with even more eye-watering levels of unaffordable debt.


We’ve left things too late to have worked out a proper Plan B. I’ve got no desire to stay at the Ka$$am not line his pockets further.

But we haven’t sorted out whose magic money tree is going to yield £150M for a lower league club to get a shiny new stadium.

The closest thing to a Plan B is to stay where we are and slowly redevelop the place at our own pace and in a sustainable manner based on our income, debt levels and league position.

On this, I reluctantly agree but it doesn’t mean I can’t see the huge risks involved.

I think everyone can see the risks, the club could be gone in a couple of years, that’s the very real situation. Just not certain your buying the Kassam and repairing it isn’t without the same risks, especially considering no rich person seems to want to do it.

 

[Scotchegg]

Quite clearly it wouldn’t. Attending to some repairs in an existing, relatively new stadium wouldn’t be anywhere near as much as buying the land, infrastructure and building a new place.


The alternative is a stadium that will cost twice as much as Brentford’s, and be half the size of it. The ‘fresh start’ as you put it would be saddling ourselves with even more eye-watering levels of unaffordable debt.


We’ve left things too late to have worked out a proper Plan B. I’ve got no desire to stay at the Ka$$am not line his pockets further.

But we haven’t sorted out whose magic money tree is going to yield £150M for a lower league club to get a shiny new stadium.

The closest thing to a Plan B is to stay where we are and slowly redevelop the place at our own pace and in a sustainable manner based on our income, debt levels and league position.

On this, I reluctantly agree but it doesn’t mean I can’t see the huge risks involved.

I don't know how frequently you go to games but if you think that the stadium needs just a few running repairs then you're badly wrong.

It's not fit for purpose. Look at the toilet facilities? No hot water, hardly any female toilets. Hardly any disabled access or baby changing facilities.

Look at the provision for disabled supporters full stop. Look at the stairs up to the SSU. Look at the concourse and the fan experience? Look at the catering facilities?

Football fans expect so much more, and deserve so much more. The stadium is barely fit for purpose today let alone in the future. Therefore the stands need to be ripped down and replaced one by one. This will take longer and cost more than building from scratch. And we are not buying the land at the Triangle but leasing instead, so the costs are no different in making good the Kassam as it would be to build a new home.