Engerland v The Sweaties

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I should also say that I really like Southgate generally. He speaks well about a lot of issues which is great and I suspect has created a great atmosphere in the squad which must be important if you're all together every day for a month in a tournament, rather than the golden generation not talking to players from different clubs. It's just the actual games I have an issue with. I think he got a bit too much credit for what making the most of what was a very favourable draw and, bizarrely, wearing a waistcoat.

As an aside anyone know why the waistcoat has gone, and/or have any insight into what he's wearing now? It appears to be some sort of blouse under a trench coat and I don't like it one bit.
 
They have both been decent so far byut they have faced 2 teams who couldn't score in a brothel - imagine France against them - that's the stuff of nightmares



...and I think that's exactly why we're playing with a defensive formation and mindset.

Get the team used to keeping clean sheets and give the forwards time to click by sticking to a formation.
 
Whataboutism on this thread!!!?

Not a whataboutism at all. You talked about the manager using the available resources, I pointed out the obvious and direct comparison. Southgate got to a World Cup Semi final while managers managing the golden generation didn't.
 
They have both been decent so far byut they have faced 2 teams who couldn't score in a brothel - imagine France against them - that's the stuff of nightmares

I was only commenting about last night's game. But they will have to continue to improve, along with the others, if we are going to beat the better teams.
 
I should also say that I really like Southgate generally. He speaks well about a lot of issues which is great and I suspect has created a great atmosphere in the squad which must be important if you're all together every day for a month in a tournament, rather than the golden generation not talking to players from different clubs. It's just the actual games I have an issue with. I think he got a bit too much credit for what making the most of what was a very favourable draw and, bizarrely, wearing a waistcoat.

As an aside anyone know why the waistcoat has gone, and/or have any insight into what he's wearing now? It appears to be some sort of blouse under a trench coat and I don't like it one bit.
I take that point - its a bit like Marcus Rashford - he has become an eloquent spokesman for the young generation and done so much good there - and seems a truly nice genuine lad - but his football seems to have suffered greatly - he is so lucky to even be there at the expense of Lingard - and has shiown no reason for his inclusion yet
 
Not a whataboutism at all. You talked about the manager using the available resources, I pointed out the obvious and direct comparison. Southgate got to a World Cup Semi final while managers managing the golden generation didn't.
I don't go for the 'I'm OK with this underperforming manager because the previous x managers were equally underperforming' line.
 
I don't go for the 'I'm OK with this underperforming manager because the previous x managers were equally underperforming' line.

As our history shows, a World Cup semi is hardly underperforming and this tournament hasn't finished yet unless the rules have suddenly changed overnight.
 
I don't go for the 'I'm OK with this underperforming manager because the previous x managers were equally underperforming' line.
I guess the point is who would do better (from those who would actually take the job that is)
 
You're missing the point. It's what you're able to do with the resources at your disposal. Some have the ability to make a silk purse from a sow's ear, others achieve the opposite.

With this squad, the kind of manager England deserve would be achieving closer to what Mancini is doing for Italy.
To be honest this team is a fairly random collection of players who bar Kane and Sterling aren’t really big stars in the premier league. We should be able to fashion a better unit out of them but they are hardly a golden generation
 
I don't go for the 'I'm OK with this underperforming manager because the previous x managers were equally underperforming' line.
I think the point is that whether whether you get BigSam, Eddie Howe, Karl or Appleton the end result is likely to be similar. A sluggishness seems to affect England after each manager makes a bright start.
 
The Scottish fans all over the socials are really amusing. Got nothing against Scotland, I wanted them to do well in this tournament, but they're treating a drab 0-0 like their 5-1 in Munich moment. The reality is that come 10 o'clock on Tuesday, they're likely to have gone out of their first international tournament in decades without even having a goal to celebrate.

On the England side, I don't really get the mass meltdown that's gone on in the last 12 hours. Yeah, it wasn't a great watch, but this is tournament football. You grow into the tournament, you don't win every game 3-0 (sorry Italy). France in 2018 got out of a terrible group (Australia, Peru, Denmark) with 7 points, including an own goal winner in the final 10 minutes against Australia and a 0-0 draw with Denmark. In 2010, the winners, one of the best international sides ever, lost their opening game to Switzerland. The more I watch international football, the more I think it's about control. With extraordinarily rare exceptions, you're simply not going to get the sophisticated passing play or coordinated pressing you get in the club game. You simply don't have time, as a coach, to instil that in the 10 days you get with the players every 4 months. The teams that always do well are the ones that can defend well, not concede, and nick wins from set pieces, or with bits of bits of inspired individual attacking play. England are pretty well set up to do just that. It worked pretty perfectly on Sunday against a side everyone had tipped to be one of the strongest in the tournament, and, if Stones scores that header, or Mount puts away that tap in, or even if Sterling gets that pen (that would probably have been given in the Prem) and we win 1-0, it's worked pretty much perfectly again last night.

Scotland played well in their cup final, and both teams basically nullified each other. England had the clearer chances, but a draw was the right result. I'm not sure what this nationwide surge in negativity does to help anything.

Absolutely bang on. Fans need to stop watching international football and thinking it’s akin to the rapid pace of the PL. It’s about control and caution. Teams that go for it suffer.

That’s what the reactionary old women who frequent this thread screeching ‘Southgate out’ don’t seem to realise. The only other England manager who seemed to ‘get’ that international football was different was Glenn Hoddle. Andy Cole was ignored for being too wasteful despite heaps of goals for Man United. Their gloriously mature performance for a 0-0 in Rome against Italy to qualify for the World Cup in 1998 showed that they had what they needed. Southgate has a similar philosophy.

As with all football, you need all areas firing and a few weren’t yesterday which led to the lack of goals. Kane in particular was disappointing and we saw Sterling play like he did when at Liverpool rather than Man City. The lack of options up front was the main difference between the Croatia and Scotland games. Nevertheless four points on the board and one more game to avoid defeat to definitely go through. Nothing to panic about. Four clean sheets in a row now too.

But - nah. England fans expect the moon on a stick. PL-style football and winning every game 5-0 en route to the final. Dream on. Realise football is different at this level and that a philosophy is needed at this level.
 
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Absolutely bang on. Fans need to stop watching international football and thinking it’s akin to the rapid pace of the PL. It’s about control and caution. Teams that go for it suffer.

That’s what despite the reactionary old women who frequent this thread screeching ‘Southgate out’ don’t seem to realise. The only other England manager who seemed to ‘get’ that international football was different was Glenn Hoddle. Andy Cole was ignored for being too wasteful despite heaps of goals for Man United. Their gloriously mature performance for a 0-0 in Rome against Italy to qualify for the World Cup in 1998 showed that they had what they needed. Southgate has a similar philosophy.

As with all football, you need all areas firing and a few weren’t yesterday which led to the lack of goals. Kane in particular was disappointing and we saw Sterling play like he did when at Liverpool rather than Man City. The lack of options up front was the main difference between the Croatia and Scotland games. Nevertheless four points on the board and one more game to avoid defeat to definitely go through. Nothing to panic about. Four clean sheets in a row now too.

But - nah. England fans expect the moon on a stick. PL-style football and winning every game 5-0 en route to the final. Dream on. Realise football is different at this level and that a philosophy is needed at this level.
As I said elsewhere I came into this tournament with limited expectations. But even from that perspective yesterday was disappointing.
 
As I said elsewhere I came into this tournament with limited expectations. But even from that perspective yesterday was disappointing.

Without doubt. But a disaster? It was a draw against a side well up for it, crowing about not losing. The win against Croatia means England look fine to go through.

Ask yourself - are England the best side in this tournament? No. Best four? Probably not. Best eight? Possibly if the draw is favourable. They made it further than expected for the World Cup in 2018. Naysayers would bemoan the draw but no side is ever going to say ‘I don’t fancy Tunisia and Panama. Can we have Brazil and France instead’. You get who you’re drawn against and the same will apply here. The draw against Scotland may well be the shake up England need to aim to top the group instead.
 
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In my opinion, this should be the 11 for our next game. Bellingham is a much more physical presence in the middle of midfield and Foden has the ability to turn the ball over and get at the opposition. Grealish and Sancho have to start. Rashford came on last night, and did nothing. Sterling was poor, and surely cannot start another game. Southgate has to get the next 11 right, and let the shackles off! This overly cautious football is rubbish. We have some of the best attacking players on the planet. Let them play!
Kane needs to be on the bench, 2 games and he has the lowest ratings out of the whole England sides that played the first 2 games. There should be no sentiment in football, it’s bad enough with Southgate insisting on keeping the mannequin Sterling on the pitch.
 
Without doubt. But a disaster? It was a draw against a side well up for it, crowing about not losing. The win against Croatia means England look fine to go through.

Ask yourself - are England the best side in this tournament? No. Best four? Probably not. Best eight? Possibly if the draw is favourable. They made it further than expected for the World Cup in 2018. Naysayers would bemoan the draw but no side is ever going to say ‘I don’t fancy Tunisia and Panama. Can we have Brazil and France instead’. You get who you’re drawn against and the same will apply here. The draw against Scotland may well be the shake up England need to aim to top the group instead.
I never said it was a disaster. I said it was poor and I've put most of the blame at the door of the manager. Others think differently. So be it. No problem.
 
So is your money on Southgate proving you right or me right?

(PS I hope it's you).
As I don't think England will win it, I'm not sure what your definition of me being proved right is...
 
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